Atheists: "Thank you for Christianity"

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Hey TD,

Do you think Christiantiy is limited to natural laws?


No, what I am saying is that Christians in history have not been limited by a philosophy that says a truth isn't worth learning since that truth could become a falsehood tomorrow, if God so wills it. This mentality has precluded scientific progress in the Muslim world. I am talking about the limits upon which scientific advancements can be made. Whether Christians believe in miracles or not, doesn't seem to have hindered the progress of science in Christian nations.

I do not get the impression that at any time the Christian view of God limited "him" to natural laws.

Well, according to Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic priest who was perhaps Christianity's most influencial thinker, "Since the principles of certain sciences - of logic, geometry and arithmetic, for instance - are derived exclusively from the formal principal of things, upon which their essence depends, it follows that God cannot make the contraries of these principles; He cannot make the genus not be predictable of the species, nor lines drawn from a circle's center to its circumference not to be equal, nor the three angles of a rectilinear triangle not to be equal to two right angles."

I agree with Rodney Stark, when he says Islam does not have "a conception of God appropriate to underwrite the rise of science. Allah is not presented as a lawful creator but is conceived of as an extremely active God who intrudes in the world as he deems it appropriate."

Robert Spencer touches on something significant when he says, "Christian mathematicians and astronomers believed they could establish scientific truths because they believed God had established the universe according to certain laws - laws that could be discovered through observation and study."

Hey scottie,

wasn't Christianity the force that was keeping the early scientists like Galileo and Newton and DaVinci down?


Actually, Pope Urban VIII was a friend and admirer of Galileo, and had opposed his condemnation in 1616. The book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was published in 1632, with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission. But the point here is that under Islam, his work never could have taken off the ground to begin with. At least not in the 17th century.

Galileo, who is often considered the Father of modern science, was considered a heretic only because he was a Christian first. Non-Christians didn't meet the status of heresy. And besides, Galileo never argued that his discoveries were at odds with biblical scripture. Instead, he maintained that people in the Church were misinterpreting scripture. Heliocentrism was never formally or officially condemned by the Catholic Church. Galileo was not executed, he was confined to house arrest,but only after it was believed that he had intended to publicly ridicule the Pope.

Responses to LCD2YOU will be forthcoming, probably after the playoff games tonight.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Moniker,

Oh, sheesh. Again, I don't know. Ignore.


Your answers are beautiful as always.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The problem with atheists being obliged to express gratitude towards any religion is that it's not possible to know what social evolution would have been like without religion.

But I will say this - I am extremely grateful to religion for providing motivation for certain human beings to behave civilly when, apparently, they are not capable of rationally justifying and choosing civil behavior otherwise.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

dartagnan wrote:Moniker,

Oh, sheesh. Again, I don't know. Ignore.


Your answers are beautiful as always.


What I find so loverly about my answers are when they occur on the first page of a thread so everyone can be stunned by the beauty of them. :)
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Beastie,

But I will say this - I am extremely grateful to religion for providing motivation for certain human beings to behave civilly when, apparently, they are not capable of rationally justifying and choosing civil behavior otherwise.


Whenever I hear believers say that without religion they would be horrible people, I find myself grateful for whatever religion is keeping them from endulging their desires. :-)

Having said this... today I was reading a fabulous book, The River Where America Began, and read diary entries and other documents written by the early settlers of Virginia, sent here by King James. The cruel, despicable and seriously unbelievable behavior that was done in the name of God is beyond what I can imagine.

I wonder, if we took all the good done in the name of God, and compared it with all the bad, how they would compare?

Hmmm...


~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_solomarineris
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Re: Atheists: "Thank you for Christianity"

Post by _solomarineris »

Bond...James Bond wrote:
solomarineris wrote:Now that you asked for it; I am really grateful Christianity taking over converting whole South America & destroying
everyting on their path.
I am very grateful for Columbus also.


(Don't forget North America)


You got that right, but I have a Q for you;
You're a Mod, right?
How come those MAD&D mods wanna look like "Fat & mean Judges"?
And you a "Trim James Bond"?
What's the catch?
_huckelberry
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Post by _huckelberry »

One of the conveniences of being an atheist is that because almost all of human history has been conducted by one sort or the other of believer the atheist can easily think if only people didn't believe all of that human nastiness would not have happened.

Sure.

I think the focus in the original post was a comparison between Islam and Christian. My thought sounds simple. I think Islam seriously tends to see faith as an obedience to a system of law from the seventh century. Christianity sees faith as trusting in God fundamental goodness.

In Islam being acceptble to God is submission to him and the prophet.

In Christianity being acceble to God is joining with Gods atonement in order to relate to others with forgiveness.

Christianity being run by a bunch of humans can be narrow and nasty at times but against that reality is a continual countercurrent demanding openness and an acceptance that people experiment and make mistakes. That countercurrent is flowing out of the idea of an atonement to my understanding. It is an enviroment where change exploration, learning and mistakes are possible, the kind of enviroment where science can thrive.

i noticed above that a list of Islamic accomplishments was noted. In the early centuries Islam was in controll of the worlds primary centers of learning trade and culture. Christianity was pushed back into areas controlled by barbarians. A comparison of cultural effect of Christianity and Islam is clearer comparing what has developed since that uneaven start.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

What I find so loverly about my answers are when they occur on the first page of a thread so everyone can be stunned by the beauty of them. :)


Clearly, your "shock and awe" method.

I decided to respond to LCD2YOU in another thread since it derails onto Islam.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

beastie wrote:But I will say this - I am extremely grateful to religion for providing motivation for certain human beings to behave civilly when, apparently, they are not capable of rationally justifying and choosing civil behavior otherwise.

This gets a huge AMEN from me!

I am thankful to Christianity...
...for coming into existence a handful of centuries before Islam, and therefore having that little extra 'growing up' time...
_SUAS
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Post by _SUAS »

beastie wrote:The problem with atheists being obliged to express gratitude towards any religion is that it's not possible to know what social evolution would have been like without religion.

But I will say this - I am extremely grateful to religion for providing motivation for certain human beings to behave civilly when, apparently, they are not capable of rationally justifying and choosing civil behavior otherwise.




I agree with you Beastie. However it would have interesting to seewhat would have happened without religion. Perhaps
with the Atheists running things there would have been no reason for the many wars that were started over religious views.
Religion would not be in Constitution. We would not have to live by someone else's morals.
God has left the building and is staying at Motel 8
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