Weird (stupid) Sealing Policies

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:Richard Dawkins is cock sure there is no God, a belief, given the actual evidence within nature that can easily and logically by interpreted to imply ythe contrary, just as indicative of a mind bereft of critical reasoning abilities as one might ascribe to Jerry Falwell.


What's wrong with Jerry Falwell's critical reasoning? Doesn't he believe in God? He believes in the global flood and a literal Adam and Eve. He advocates the patriarchal family. He supported racial segregation and opposes homosexual rights. I do wonder what other Church that sounds like? ;)

Are you an agnostic, Coggies?

by the way, there's a word in the above quote that offends my sensibilities.
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Keep that in mind the next time we sustain our leaders.



The Patriarchal Order has nothing to do with ability or capacity in the limited manner in which you mean it. As a typical feminist, you're entire concept of worth is bound up with power, power relations, and control issues. The division of labor between men and woman in this life, and the governing role of men in the affairs of the Church, is ordained of God because it is, at least in this life, the optimum situation for both, and especially for children.

Make sure to let your Bishop know, at your next Temple recommend interview, that you do not accept the doctrine of the Patriarchal Order (which you can then add to the long laundry list of other central Church doctrines you do not accept and which you have decided, upon your own authority, do not have "Christ in them" as you have said before).

We await your explanation of how and in what manner you were anointed to sit in judgment of the Lord's servants in our day; those who are understood to be-well-anointed, and whom I sustain.

It is also the case that the last time I attended Church, it was not the Church of Harmony of Latter Day Saints. There was another name there...uh...now....what was that?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Moniker wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
A candidate's religion, and how deeply the candidate practices their religion, is a viable factor in politics. Not everyone in this country is whatever the religion the candidate is. I want to know how the candidate deals with reality. Looking at religion can give insight into the candidate's way of looking at reality.



And what, pray tell me, does belief in the literal truth of the Fall, or in a global flood, have to do with dealing with Iran, or tax policy?


I think it speaks to the evolution vs. ID debate. For one.

Other issues that may relate to religious persuasion:

Stem cell research. Abortion. Social welfare. Vouchers. Homosexual issues.

Bush -- faith based initiatives that provides grants to religious institutions.

There are plenty of ways in which religious views can be reflected in policy.



This is a scattergun of ideological positions and policy preferences. What does any of this have to do with the question at hand?

First of all Moniker, the origin or intellectual core of my or anyone else's beliefs are irrelevant to one's right to participate in the political life of one's country, or to serve in positions of political power. The position you have taken here would eventuate in a religious test to judge qualifications for office, in this case, a test administered by anti-religious secularists for the purpose of barring the religious from participation in polices because they fear such beliefs would influence decision making and eventuate in policies they don't like. This is so typical and indicative, yet again, of the totalitarian mentality that lurks just below the surface of many of those who call themselves 'liberals".

From a constitutional perspective, whether my views of ID, abortion, stem cell research, or any other issue, are influenced by religious beliefs, or by purely secular concerns, have no relevance. Nor does a religious template that sets standards and creates a central bias through which issues are seen preclude in any way, critical thought (the same critical thinking processes can and do lead different people to quite different conclusions). It does condition the central assumptions from which critical thought proceed, but not necessarily the thought itself.

What you really want to do is preclude the participation of religious people from participation in the political life of the nation because you are threatened by what this might mean for public policy.

The only thing I can do is point you to the founding documents. This is a representative democracy; we are free to elect and be governed by whom we choose. Setting up a caste system that precludes entire classes of citizens from participation in the political process, as Blacks were in the old South, is just the bigot's way of winning all political battles by default and circumventing the arena of ideas, where, in many cases, they know they will lose.

Your list of issues is interesting for the manner in which it appears to be a set of issues, the right answers to which are a foregone conclusion and upon which debate has ended. The influence of religious conservatives in positions of power, does, indeed, threaten the hegemony of the Left in such areas, and threatens to keep debate and controversy on these issues open and vigorous (except for the evolution thing, which is a massive waste of hot air for all involved in a political sense (and the debate is between Creationists and Darwinian fundamentalists, not between ID and evolution. Many defenders of the Darwinian world view like to pretend that ID is the same thing as "Creationism" as a debate stalling tactic, but the serious ID folks saw through that ruse long ago. The overwhelming majority of people involved in the forefront of ID believe, as I do, in evolution as to its basic framework. Some in ID are religious, a number are not. The debate between ID and evolution is about the plausibility of the evolution of life as a purely blind, random chance process, not necessarily about whether evolution occurred. There are issues regarding the degree to which macroevolutoin occurred, but that is a relatively tertiary issue)).

And, in any case, what on earth does evolution have to do with anything of any substance in American politics? Who cares what the President thinks about it? This is another issue, like abortion, that has no business as a national political issue at all in any event.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:
Moniker wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
A candidate's religion, and how deeply the candidate practices their religion, is a viable factor in politics. Not everyone in this country is whatever the religion the candidate is. I want to know how the candidate deals with reality. Looking at religion can give insight into the candidate's way of looking at reality.



And what, pray tell me, does belief in the literal truth of the Fall, or in a global flood, have to do with dealing with Iran, or tax policy?


I think it speaks to the evolution vs. ID debate. For one.

Other issues that may relate to religious persuasion:

Stem cell research. Abortion. Social welfare. Vouchers. Homosexual issues.

Bush -- faith based initiatives that provides grants to religious institutions.
<
There are plenty of ways in which religious views can be reflected in policy.



This is a scattergun of ideological positions and policy preferences. What does any of this have to do with the question at hand?


The question that deals with sealings? I have no clue!

The positions that I stated above can pertain to how one views a candidate and decide whether they hold the same beliefs, opinions, philosophy, etc... as it relates to their own. That's what people look at what when they vote you silly willy! If a candidate gets up and says they support ID being taught in schools then there are some that will not desire to vote for that person. Same to do with all the other things I mentioned (and a myriad of other positions that could rightly be effected by religious beliefs). You wanted to know how religious beliefs could effect policy decision. I answered you. Was I too succinct?

First of all hana, the origin or intellectual core of my or anyone else's beliefs are irrelevant to one's right to participate in the political life of one's country, or to serve in positions of political power. The position you have taken here would eventuate in a religious test to judge qualifications for office, in this case, a test administered by anti-religious secularists for the purpose of barring the religious from participation in polices because they fear such beliefs would influence decision making and eventuate in policies they don't like. This is so typical and indicative, yet again, of the totalitarian mentality that lurks just below the surface of many of those who call themselves 'liberals".


You're such a dodo bird sometimes! Anyone can participate -- and I can choose not to vote for whatever friggin reason I want. I don't like their hairdo? No vote for you! There is a test of office -- you must convince the electorate that you share their beliefs and that you will enact policy that reflects their desires -- this is the test for office. Now if my beliefs differ considerably from the candidates, and it will effect policy, I will not vote for them. Is this really that difficult to comprehend?

by the way, I don't call myself a liberal. I let you do that for me. Although I'm not one -- I just play one on MDB to piss you off. :)

<blabbity blabbity blabbity snipped>

ANYONE can run. Doesn't mean anyone will vote for them.

~~edited~~
Sorry. I just have been irritated lately that you continue to lecture me on our constitution and Republic when it's evident that you don't know what in the hell you're talking about sometimes and it pushes my buttons. I hope you enjoy your courses and take something out of them.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Oh dear! I snipped too quickly. Didn't see this lil nugget! :)
Coggins7 wrote:
The debate between ID and evolution is about the plausibility of the evolution of life as a purely blind, random chance process, not necessarily about whether evolution occurred.


Are you one of the "serious ID folks", Coggins? Might want to brush up on evolution before you try to discuss it. :)
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Are you one of the "serious ID folks", Coggins? Might want to brush up on evolution before you try to discuss it. :)



Yes I am and, uh...right...
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

I appear to have gotten Moniker mixed up with hana. It is hana, Scratch, Seth, and a few others who are itching for a religious test of fitness to serve in government, not, apparently, Moniker.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Coggins wrote:It is also the case that the last time I attended Church, it was not the Church of Harmony of Latter Day Saints. There was another name there...uh...now....what was that?



The last time I attended Church (which was this morning), it wasn't called The Church of Coggins of Latter Day Saints, either.

Knock off your vendetta against Harmony. It's getting old.
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

And I have edited my reply to her accordingly.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

The last time I attended Church (which was this morning), it wasn't called The Church of Coggins of Latter Day Saints, either.

Knock off your vendetta against Harmony. It's getting old.



Its Harmony making the claim that its hers, not me making a claim that its mine. Harmony is an intellectual fraud and poseur, her wolf's clothing fits very well and she's made it perfectly clear that's the way she likes it. I have very serious ethical problems with someone who has apostatized from the church, for all intents and purposes COMPLETELY, and yet who stays within its ranks in an attempt to form and fleck it more to her liking, and destroy the faith and testimony of others by influencing them to disdain and rebel against the Brethren, ignore core teachings of the Church, and corrupt the Church from within.

In a word Liz, hit the road.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
Post Reply