More on the Purpose of FARMS

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_charity
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _charity »

GoodK wrote:Maybe I am just underinformed, but I would like to know the title of a history or book of Mormonism that isn't "faith promoting" and at the same time isn't deemed "anti-mormon" by FARMS. Brodies "No Man Knows My History" was the kindest interpretation of the facts that I've read, yet it takes one review from an accused child molestor to deem the book anti-mormon and invalid in the LDS community(No Ma'm that's not History, Nibley).


So far, we haven't seen a book about the Book of Mormon or Mormon history which is accurate. The closest are Dan Vogel's writings. But he starts out with an absolute "anti-faith promoting" proposition which makes his works as apologetic from the anti-Mormon view as any that are written from the pro-Mormon point of view.

In case any of you aren't aware, Vogel absolutely refuses to accept that there are angels, visions, revelations, etc. So any account which incluides any of those has to be in error and has to be refuted no matter how flimsy the argument or evidence.
_harmony
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:In case any of you aren't aware, Vogel absolutely refuses to accept that there are angels, visions, revelations, etc. So any account which incluides any of those has to be in error and has to be refuted no matter how flimsy the argument or evidence.


My understanding was that it's not that he doesn't accept angels, visions, etc. It's that there is no verifiable evidence to support their existence, and he deals strictly with verifiable evidence. So, charity, your mission is to produce the gold plates that Joseph used. Shouldn't be hard. Go forth and conquer!
_The Nehor
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _The Nehor »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:In case any of you aren't aware, Vogel absolutely refuses to accept that there are angels, visions, revelations, etc. So any account which incluides any of those has to be in error and has to be refuted no matter how flimsy the argument or evidence.


My understanding was that it's not that he doesn't accept angels, visions, etc. It's that there is no verifiable evidence to support their existence, and he deals strictly with verifiable evidence. So, charity, your mission is to produce the gold plates that Joseph used. Shouldn't be hard. Go forth and conquer!


They're in my closet. Moroni leaves his stuff here all the time.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_harmony
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _harmony »

The Nehor wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:In case any of you aren't aware, Vogel absolutely refuses to accept that there are angels, visions, revelations, etc. So any account which incluides any of those has to be in error and has to be refuted no matter how flimsy the argument or evidence.


My understanding was that it's not that he doesn't accept angels, visions, etc. It's that there is no verifiable evidence to support their existence, and he deals strictly with verifiable evidence. So, charity, your mission is to produce the gold plates that Joseph used. Shouldn't be hard. Go forth and conquer!


They're in my closet. Moroni leaves his stuff here all the time.


There ya go, charity. Nehor's holding them for you. All you have to do is pick them up and deliver them to FARMS. Should be no problem.

Hey, Nehor! Did he leave the Urim and Thummim with you too? I bet you look like Mr Incredible in the breastplate!
_Mister Scratch
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _Mister Scratch »

harmony wrote:The idea that the FARMS apologists are in charge of the henhouse, not the GA's, is very disturbing. Apologists have no stewardship, no calling, no setting apart that gives them the mantle and keys needed to declare doctrine.

We're all in trouble, if Daniel's in charge.


I don't know that I would go so far as to say that they are "in charge," so much as that they function as a buffer for the doubting/unsure GAs. For example, let's suppose some of the GAs---Oaks, Eyring, and Uchdorf, let's say---have looked over all the DNA evidence (or lack thereof) and have come to the conclusion that it would be wrong-headed, and bad for the Church, to continue claiming that Indians are the "pricipal" ancestors of the Lamanites. They decide, further, that it's time to change the intro to the Book of Mormon. Now, will this fly with the membership? Perhaps; perhaps not. But they have a bit of help: namely, FARMS. FARMS and its various sister organizations, such as FAIR, and even, arguably, MAD, exist to figure out ways to smooth over this stuff, and to pave the way for the various earth-shattering alterations that take place every so often within the Church.

What I'm getting at is this: the *real*, nitty-gritty changes occurring in the Church largely happen in total secrecy. It seems clear (as per DCP's remarks in the Z thread), that the Brethren secretly worry about and doubt many aspects of Church orthodoxy. They cannot reveal their doubts in public, though, and so this doctrinal and spiritual journey gets worked out mostly in the realm of apologetics. DCP, Hamblin, Sorenson, Clark and others work at "testing the waters," as it were, in order to see how evolutions in the Church will go over with the faithful. Perhaps they are sitting on damning evidence pertaining to Kinderhook, for example, and are just waiting to see if the apologists can figure out a way to "gently" ease this frightening ship into the waters.

There was once a story, as I recall, that Elder Hugh Brown wanted to do away with the Book of Abraham. According to other accounts, some of the current Brethren feel this way as well. It could very well be that in John Gee we are seeing the "Last Stand" of the Church's defense on this front. The apologists will fail to answer all of the many critical charges, and will begin a tactical retreat, ala LGT. Then, after enough time has passed, we will see some other gradual acknowledgment from on high, which demotes the Book of Abraham to a lesser status within the canon.

I just find it interesting how FARMS gets to play "middle man" in all of this, all so that TBMs like charity can continue to insist that the Church never changes.
_The Nehor
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _The Nehor »

harmony wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:In case any of you aren't aware, Vogel absolutely refuses to accept that there are angels, visions, revelations, etc. So any account which incluides any of those has to be in error and has to be refuted no matter how flimsy the argument or evidence.


My understanding was that it's not that he doesn't accept angels, visions, etc. It's that there is no verifiable evidence to support their existence, and he deals strictly with verifiable evidence. So, charity, your mission is to produce the gold plates that Joseph used. Shouldn't be hard. Go forth and conquer!


They're in my closet. Moroni leaves his stuff here all the time.


There ya go, charity. Nehor's holding them for you. All you have to do is pick them up and deliver them to FARMS. Should be no problem.

Hey, Nehor! Did he leave the Urim and Thummim with you too? I bet you look like Mr Incredible in the breastplate!


No can do. He told me if I touch his stuff he's going to make Shiz's death look poetic and beautiful compared to what happens to me.

Breastplate is not here, I think it's in a warehouse next to the Ark.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_harmony
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _harmony »

Mister Scratch wrote:I just find it interesting how FARMS gets to play "middle man" in all of this, all so that TBMs like charity can continue to insist that the Church never changes.


I think it's logical that they use FARMS. FARMS is owned by the church, lock, stock and barrel. Of course they'd be the logical conduit. The church will do whatever it takes to maintain believers like Charity. Heck, she works for free!
_Mister Scratch
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _Mister Scratch »

harmony wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:I just find it interesting how FARMS gets to play "middle man" in all of this, all so that TBMs like charity can continue to insist that the Church never changes.


I think it's logical that they use FARMS. FARMS is owned by the church, lock, stock and barrel. Of course they'd be the logical conduit. The church will do whatever it takes to maintain believers like Charity. Heck, she works for free!


It is interesting, though, that they find it necessary to insist---vehemently---that there is no "official" relationship between the Church and FARMS. I guess it's just all part of the whole "plausible deniability" thing.

And, you know, I am reminded of the whole "2nd Watson Letter" Fiasco, which really just adds more weight to my main point. Why would the Brethren---or the Brethren's representative---throw in the towel on such a long-standing doctrinal matter as the location of the Hill Cumorah? It really speaks volumes that they would write a letter on official letterhead in order to toss a bone to FARMS. It was as if the FP were saying, "Oh, whoops! That's what we get for trying to actually be firm in our beliefs! Memo to self: Let FARMS handle this tricky doctrinal stuff!"
_harmony
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Re: More on the Purpose of FARMS

Post by _harmony »

Mister Scratch wrote:
harmony wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:I just find it interesting how FARMS gets to play "middle man" in all of this, all so that TBMs like charity can continue to insist that the Church never changes.


I think it's logical that they use FARMS. FARMS is owned by the church, lock, stock and barrel. Of course they'd be the logical conduit. The church will do whatever it takes to maintain believers like Charity. Heck, she works for free!


It is interesting, though, that they find it necessary to insist---vehemently---that there is no "official" relationship between the Church and FARMS. I guess it's just all part of the whole "plausible deniability" thing.


Which we all know is balderdash. Of course there's an official relationship. Hello? FARMS is housed at BYU. It's staffed by BYU staffers. It's bills are paid by BYU. And the church owns BYU lock, stock, and barrel. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

And, you know, I am reminded of the whole "2nd Watson Letter" Fiasco, which really just adds more weight to my main point. Why would the Brethren---or the Brethren's representative---throw in the towel on such a long-standing doctrinal matter as the location of the Hill Cumorah? It really speaks volumes that they would write a letter on official letterhead in order to toss a bone to FARMS. It was as if the FP were saying, "Oh, whoops! That's what we get for trying to actually be firm in our beliefs! Memo to self: Let FARMS handle this tricky doctrinal stuff!"


I'm not seeing the connection between your point A and point D. Care to extrapolate a bit more?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:To someone outside your little circle of cheerleaders, these posts are just bunk. You haven't read or udnerstood a word of what was said in the dialogue. And then you make an absolutelyu untrue interpretaiton by saying that General Authorities are doubters! And that they don't interpret Church doctrine.

Let me say, this falls right into the standard, laughable anti-Mormon strategies. Misunderstand, mistinerpret, write up out of whole clothoutrageous things, and then point fingers and mock and ridicule.


The worship of Daniel continues.



No, just the pathetic truth.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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