What good does it do to criticize?

[_Scottie]

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their home and this leads their children to dabble with drugs at a young age.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS may leave their children at home unattended and this leads to premarital sex.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that women that have various sexual partners suffer from a mental disorder.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) to say that women that stay with abusive spouses are "dumb".

I wonder if that criticism (judgment) could be given as "feedback" and done in a way in which the persons targeted don't feel gosh darnit to heck all bad about themselves when they hear it?

Just wondering...

There is constructive, useful criticism, and there is destructive criticism. These are all great examples of the latter. As is "Hey, did you know you're fat??" That is in no way constructive.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) to say that a known, convicted child molester might not be allowed to have my kids over to play.

[_LCD2YOU]

As Moniker asked above, do you give all your students A's and do they always score 100% on their tests with you? If not, then you have criticized them, haven't you?

I have not criticized the student. Tests are merely consequences.

As is criticism.

If I say, "You have bad study habits, you aren't smart enough for this level class, you are too immature for college," that is criticism.

No, I'd say that is something else entirely. I'd say that is being judgemental and predjudicial.

All it says is "Look what you've done". What you stated here is something else entirely.

Not true. It is one thing to say to someone, "This is the result of what you did." (As in the example with the bishop, if you go to him and say "My friend felt he wasn't supported. He really has been trying to get himself together. Since I know him so well. . . ." ) and quite another to say, "You really botched this up."

I didn't touch that example. I think you are confusing criticism with lambasting someone.

2. In most instances, as soon as you tell someone they are wrong, they get defensive.

Depends on how you tell them. Depends on what advice (or not) you give them afterwards. That is generally true, but I live by the addage:

"The Truth shall set you free, even if it gets you mad first!"

I agree that how you say anything makes a difference. It is in the judging or not judging.

By giving a criticism, by grading someone's paper and marking anything on it is to judge. Like it or not, everything we do is based on judgement. The way you judge along with how you go about it makes the "wrong way" or the "right way".

Saying to the bishop, "This is what my friend felt after you spoke to him. " does not imply a judgement. You are not telling the bishop he was wrong. You are merely relaying information. As soon as you start to criticize, you have stopped relaying information. This is what happens with criticism. Feedback is generally great. Criticism is generally counter productive.

But you still leveled criticism at the Bishop. By taking the information to the Bishop you critized how they did it. You may not wat to think that is criticism but it still is.

3. Most criticism does not result in change that the critic wants.

Poor criticism, just saying "You're wrong you moron" will not. Constructive comments, generally will. Though I know a few people who need the 2x4 method of delivering "constructive comments".

So you would go to the activities committee chairman and say, "Next time you plan a ward activity, you really ought to plan a better menu.

Um, no. Is that what you got from what I posted? That's a shame as that is not what it was all about. My very posting was to point out that if you were asked to help and you didn't, don't complain (critize) the food.

And when you have a talent show, you really should have auditions first so we aren't stuck having to listen to Sister Blank sing and Brother Cypher tell that boring long story." ???

Never said either of those things. Please tell me where you got that as I don't remember writing anything like that.

4. Criticism creates hard feelings in the criticized.

In most cases, I don't care. If I criticize my daughters for poor grades and offer them a solution and they get over the "hard feelings" and do better in school, the "hard feelings" they had because I grounded them from going out with their friends that night, well, I'll get past that really easily.

You really aren't getting the point here about criticism. When my kids got a bad grade, they were limited in their activities until they pulled the grade up. That is NOT criticism. That is behavioral consequences.

That you have made a judgement on their bahaviour is criticism. Again, you confuse criticism with harsh ridicule and rebuking.

Criticism is not saying, "You will be given a chance to concentrate more on your math, because you will not be allowed to talk to your friends on the phone after school until your homework is done." Criticism is saying, "You are so flighty! All you do is talk to your friends on the phone instead of doing your homework."

Uh, no. The first is direct criticism with ways to show them how to get out of the particular jam they are in. The second is making fun of them and ridicule.

And you should be very concerned about hard feelings in your children. All that does is make the child rebellious. It also tears down the child's self esteem.

Which is why I do the former and not the latter.

Scenario #1. There is a ward activity you didn't like. The planned talent show was a flop, the food was not tasty. It wasn't very well attended. So you start criticizing it. The criticism won't change the ward activity. It happened. It will make the activity committee members unhappy. It will make you look like an insensitive complainer.

Especailly if you were asked to help and you didn't bother lifting a finger. Though there are times, like say the heirarchy has planned an event every night at the ward (woe to those who don't go). Now here's a time where criticism of planning ward activities that interfere with family life is totally justified. The person who plans all of these events has no regard for others and should be brought back to reality.

How do you mean "woe to those who don't go?" The best feedback is simply not to attend. And your "every night" scenario doesn't wash in the Church. Lots of talks lately about limiting activities and meetings which take people away from family time.

They, like yours are examples or are you just critizing me? :)

But criticism, where it is deserved, is as "Some Schmo" pointed out, "a way to help people grow"

Criticism doesn't, feedback does. Feedback is judgement free. Criticism is only judgement.

Feedback is criticism in all but a few cases.

Again, what you are confusing is criticism with "rebuking", "reprimanding" or other harsh treatments.

Sometimes though, harsh and pointed criticism can be very effective when used correctly. The harsher the tool, the less it should be used is true but like all tools, the tool is neither good nor bad, the use or misuse of the tool is what determines "right" from "wrong".

[_malkie]

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their home and this leads their children to dabble with drugs at a young age.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS may leave their children at home unattended and this leads to premarital sex.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that women that have various sexual partners suffer from a mental disorder.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) to say that women that stay with abusive spouses are "dumb".

I wonder if that criticism (judgment) could be given as "feedback" and done in a way in which the persons targeted don't feel gosh darnit to heck all bad about themselves when they hear it?

Just wondering...

And does this only matter if the women mentioned in these points (the 3rd & 4th points you are wondering about) are "Church Leaders"? (Obviously the criticism of non-LDS is OK - they are not (LDS) Church Leaders.)

Is Charity a "Church Leader". If she is, better be careful, Moniker, lest you be thought to be criticizing her!

[_why me]

The apostle Paul warns against bickering in the church. He counsels to be of one mind. And this is important. We see from the mainstream chruches just what bickering creates. It creates division and splits. Not healthy in my opinion. Now I don't believe that the GA was refering to constructive criticism where the spirit is present. But to the other kind, the more devisive form that creates bad feelings and ill intent.

[_LCD2YOU]

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their home and this leads their children to dabble with drugs at a young age.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS may leave their children at home unattended and this leads to premarital sex.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that women that have various sexual partners suffer from a mental disorder.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) to say that women that stay with abusive spouses are "dumb".

I wonder if that criticism (judgment) could be given as "feedback" and done in a way in which the persons targeted don't feel gosh darnit to heck all bad about themselves when they hear it?

Just wondering...

And does this only matter if the women mentioned in these points (the 3rd & 4th points you are wondering about) are "Church Leaders"? (Obviously the criticism of non-LDS is OK - they are not (LDS) Church Leaders.)

Is Charity a "Church Leader". If she is, better be careful, Moniker, lest you be thought to be criticizing her!

Stop criticizing her!

With some people, all they do is criticize and belabor a point ad nauseum.

Don't they have anything better to do?

Why are they always on somebodies' case?

Oh those people really make me mad.

They are always up in someone's face.

I could go on about them but I am so much better of a person than they could ever be.

:D

[_Scottie]

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their home and this leads their children to dabble with drugs at a young age.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS may leave their children at home unattended and this leads to premarital sex.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that women that have various sexual partners suffer from a mental disorder.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) to say that women that stay with abusive spouses are "dumb".

I wonder if that criticism (judgment) could be given as "feedback" and done in a way in which the persons targeted don't feel gosh darnit to heck all bad about themselves when they hear it?

Just wondering...

And does this only matter if the women mentioned in these points (the 3rd & 4th points you are wondering about) are "Church Leaders"? (Obviously the criticism of non-LDS is OK - they are not (LDS) Church Leaders.)

Is Charity a "Church Leader". If she is, better be careful, Moniker, lest you be thought to be criticizing her!

Stop criticizing her!

With some people, all they do is criticize and belabor a point ad nauseum.

Don't they have anything better to do?

Why are they always on somebodies' case?

Oh those people really make me mad.

They are always up in someone's face.

I could go on about them but I am so much better of a person than they could ever be.

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

[_malkie]

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their home and this leads their children to dabble with drugs at a young age.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that non-LDS may leave their children at home unattended and this leads to premarital sex.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) when one says that women that have various sexual partners suffer from a mental disorder.

I do wonder if there is criticism (judgment) to say that women that stay with abusive spouses are "dumb".

I wonder if that criticism (judgment) could be given as "feedback" and done in a way in which the persons targeted don't feel gosh darnit to heck all bad about themselves when they hear it?

Just wondering...

And does this only matter if the women mentioned in these points (the 3rd & 4th points you are wondering about) are "Church Leaders"? (Obviously the criticism of non-LDS is OK - they are not (LDS) Church Leaders.)

Is Charity a "Church Leader". If she is, better be careful, Moniker, lest you be thought to be criticizing her!

Stop criticizing her!

With some people, all they do is criticize and belabor a point ad nauseum.

Don't they have anything better to do?

Why are they always on somebodies' case?

Oh those people really make me mad.

They are always up in someone's face.

I could go on about them but I am so much better of a person than they could ever be.

:D

My bad! Sorry I was criticizing her.

[by the way, I'm not sure which "her" I was criticizing - Charity or Moniker. Doesn't really matter, I suppose, especially if both Charity & Moniker are Church Leaders. Regardless, everyone please accept my apology.]

It's great that we have such a good person as yourself, LCD2YOU, to look up to. You must be a Church Leader!

You won't ever catch me criticizing LCD2YOU.

[_Moniker]

I'm an arrogant twit and I criticize all of you!

Please do refrain from criticizing my arrogant twitnittery lest you be one too!

[_harmony]

The apostle Paul warns against bickering in the church. He counsels to be of one mind. And this is important. We see from the mainstream chruches just what bickering creates. It creates division and splits. Not healthy in my opinion. Now I don't believe that the GA was refering to constructive criticism where the spirit is present. But to the other kind, the more devisive form that creates bad feelings and ill intent.

The apostle Paul also told women to shut up in church.

The LDS church has it's share of divisions and splits. The RLDS, the FLDS, the many polygamist sects in Utah are all splits from the LDS church. How is that not healthy?

I think Elder Oaks said exactly what he meant to say. He wasn't saying that constructive criticism was alright. He was saying all criticism of church leaders is wrong. He was putting himself above the members. He and the other GAs give us all sorts of criticism and we're supposed to humbly take it and change our ways, but he thinks he and the other GAs are above listening to us. Well, I guess you know what some of us think of that.

[_ozemc]

I'm an arrogant twit and I criticize all of you!

Please do refrain from criticizing my arrogant twitnittery lest you be one too!

... I'm a Pepper, he's a Pepper, she's a Pepper ...

:-)