Mike Quinn

[_Runtu]

There is no doubt that Quinn is a Mormon historian. But, only a minor unpublished one.

You've completely lost me on this. How you can say with a straight face that Quinn is a minor, unpublished historian is beyond me. Surely, you're just trying to get a rise out of people here.

[_James Clifford Miller]

Dear rcrocket:

I look forward excitedly to see your response to the following:

I may not be entirely familiar with all of Quinn's books, but as far as I can tell he has never published at any academic publisher (except BYU) on any Mormon topic. He may indeed being a national expert on buggery, but he doesn't meet the usual qualifications as a historian if he hasn't published in academic journals.

The essays you cite, I don't know. Which ones are Mormon topics?

Here ya go:

1. "Religion in the American West," in Under An Open Sky: Rethinking America's Western Past, ed. William J. Cronon, George Miles, and Jay Gitlin (New York: W. W. Norton and Co., 1992), 145-66.

2. "Plural Marriage and Mormon Fundamentalism," in Fundamentalisms and Society: Reclaiming the Sciences, the Family, and Education, ed. Martin E. Marty and R. Scott Appleby (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1993), 240-93.

3. "Thomas Hart Benton," Edmunds Acts," "J. Golden Kimball," "Latter Day Saints, Reorganized," "Mormon Manifesto," "Mountain Meadows Massacre," "Polygamy," "Salt Lake City, Utah," and "Joseph Smith, Jr.," in New Encyclopedia of the American West, ed. Howard R. Lamar (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998), 92-93, 331, 595, 626-27, 737, 743-44, 895-96, 1003-05, 1058-60.

4. "John C. Bennett," "Spencer W. Kimball," and "Emmeline B. Wells," in American National Biography, 24 vols., ed. John A. Garraty and Mark C. Carnes (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999), 2: 590-92, 12: 680-82, 23: 19-20.

5. "Magic, Folk" "Mormons (Latter-day Saints)," and "Smith, Joseph, Jr." in Encyclopedia of New York State, ed. Peter Eisenstadt (Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press, 2005), 943-44, 1010-12, 1426-27.

6. As already stated, his Same Sex Dynamics book published by the U. of Illinois Press.

Yep, that Quinn sure is a slacker ....

This reminds me of the recent thread over at Juiliann's LDS board where a poster asked why only LDS had apologetics and no other religions did -- and then got buried under an avalanche of replies which gave evidence of the centuries-old tradition of Christian apologetics and listings of all the myriad other contemporary religions which have apologetics. The OP there finally admitted he was wrong. I wonder if rcrocket will do the same.

James Clifford Miller
millerjamesc@cox.net

[_Sethbag]

What's really ironic about the whole "see? we're not alone, EVERY church has their own apologetics crew!" is that, having provided the avalanch of evidence that they're just one drop in a whole bucket of religious apologetic groups, they fail to realize that they are, really, exactly the same as the rest of that bucket. Mormonism is just one more of thousands of non-true religions and churches. Mormon apologists are just one more group of apologists for false religion. Same ole, same ole, only the names are different.

[_DonBradley]

Hi all,

On Mike Quinn and Mormonism:

1) Mike Quinn is absolutely a true believer in Mormonism. I've known Mike for sixteen years, and have found him consistent and unwavering in his testimony of foundational LDS beliefs.

2) Mike acts as and considers himself an apologist for Mormonism. He recently wrote a piece in Sunstone defending the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

3) The principal problem FARMS-type apologists have had with Quinn is not that he believes too little, but that he believes too much. Mike Quinn is (somehow) able to actually believe the magic-related parts of Mormonism, believe that God inspired some of Joseph Smith, et al's. violent behavior, etc., etc. FARMS apologists and the like can't believe these things, so they feel compelled to deny that they ever occurred. Hence they shoot the messenger.


On Mike Quinn's homosexuality:

1) Contrary to Bob Crocket's claims, Mike Quinn was not openly gay nor living a gay lifestyle anywhere near 1980, nor at all while he worked for BYU. Mike didn't even tell his own parents of his homosexual orientation until shortly before his Same-Sex Dynamics book in the 1990s. And he lived a completely heterosexual, married lifestyle until his divorce in the late 80s.

2) Contrary (again) to Crocket's assertions, there weren't rumors of Mike being gay during his time at BYU. Colleagues of Mike's with whom I've spoken didn't hear about his homosexual orientation until well into the 90s.

3) My information on this subject comes from reliable sources. I've known Mike himself since 1991, and he once recounted to me at some length (and before his homosexuality was publicly known) his "story" with regard to his sexual orientation, from his early life up through the aftermath of his divorce. I also know Mike's former wife Jan and have been at her house, have met two of his children, know longtime friends of his such as Maxine Hanks, and spoke about early rumors of his homosexuality with two close colleagues of his.

4) I don't know anything about what relationships Mike has, or hasn't, had since his divorce. And unless one has much better evidence that Crocket's "recollections" of imaginary events of 1980, there is little or nothing that can be said about this.



On Mike's academic record:

1) Mike Quinn's Ph.D. is from Yale--the university with the most prominent US History program.

2) A few years ago Mike had a prestigious year-long research fellowship at the Beinecke Library at Yale. Having just spent two days at the Beinecke, I can attest that it is an absolutely top-notch academic library. Fellowships like the one Mike had must be applied for, and an applicant faces stiff competition. That Mike was awarded this fellowship shows that he is still held in high academic regard.

3) Early Mormonism and the Magic World View documents several hundred connections of and parallels between folk magic and early Mormonism using hundreds of sources. These sources are real and meaningful regardless of whether the Salamander Letter--which Mike's book doesn't use--was real or not. When Crocket tells you to think "white salamander," you should really be thinking "red herring."

4) Although Crocket dismisses Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, scholars like Jon Butler (a name familiar to any serious or semi-serious student of US religious history) regard it as a tremendous breakthrough in American cultural history. Just read the reviewer comments on the back cover, and the reviews of the book in academic journals.

5) During my time in the "Archive of Restoration Culture" fellowship with Richard Bushman at BYU in 1997, Bushman made several positive comments regarding Quinn's work, including Early Mormonism and the Magic World View and even Same-Sex Dynamics in Nineteenth Century America. I do not recall any criticisms Bushman leveled at Quinn.

6) Mike Quinn had completed his Ph.D. at Yale before amateur historian Richard Van Wagoner had done any significant work in Mormon history. Quinn was certainly not "schooled at his feet." Rather, in his work at Yale, Quinn was schooled at the feet of some of the finest historians in the United States.

7) Crocket's challenge--"What academic publisher has Dr. Quinn published his books at? Name one."--belies such ignorance regarding Quinn that CROCKet is clearly not worth talking to on the subject.

Crocket claims to have been in "on the ground level" of the founding at FARMS in the BYU milieu of the early 1980s, to have been at BYU during this time, to have a great deal of BYU-insider knowledge, and to have seriously explored Quinn's academic credibility, yet he is unaware that Quinn published a biography of J. Reuben Clark (J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years) as early as 1983 through the Brigham Young University Press. (Or is the university on whose scholarship Crocket so relies not an "academic publisher"? )

Also, as mentioned by others, and irrationally dismissed by Crocket, Quinn's Same-Sex Dynamics in Nineteenth Century America was published by a highly respected academic publisher, the University of Illinois Press. Quinn has published and continues to publish in numerous peer-reviewed journals--the gold standard of academic respectability. And he provided a chapter for the Fundamentalisms series edited by Martin Marty and Scott Applebly and published by the University of Chicago Press. This series represents some of the most prominent and credible academic work ever done on religious fundamentalisms. To have been published in the series easily establishes one's academic bona fides, as Crocket would know if he had any awareness of historical scholarship on religion.

8) While Mike Quinn couldn't get hired at Bob Crocket University,he has somehow been able to get published by BYU Press, University of Illinois Press, Oxford University Press, the University of Chicago and to trick one of the nation's top university into awarding him a Ph.D and, recently, a prestigious research fellowship. Clearly the question isn't whether Mike is academically respectable and well-qualified, but who the moron is in charge of hiring at BCU.



Don

[_Bond...James Bond]

CROCKET GOT

[_beastie]

Part of the delicious irony in this episode is that bob, himself, relies on sources such as Cyrus Gordon's "Before Columbus" to craft his own arguments.

Just an example from Gordon: chapter one is devoted to "proof" that old worlders frequented the new world because some of the sculptures from the Old World look "negroid".

[_Mister Scratch]

Don, thank you for chiming in, and for completely embarrassing rcrocket.

I was especially interested in this:

On Mike Quinn's homosexuality:

1) Contrary to Bob Crocket's claims, Mike Quinn was not openly gay nor living a gay lifestyle anywhere near 1980, nor at all while he worked for BYU. Mike didn't even tell his own parents of his homosexual orientation until shortly before his Same-Sex Dynamics book in the 1990s. And he lived a completely heterosexual, married lifestyle until his divorce in the late 80s.

2) Contrary (again) to Crocket's assertions, there weren't rumors of Mike being gay during his time at BYU. Colleagues of Mike's with whom I've spoken didn't hear about his homosexual orientation until well into the 90s.

What this shows is that DCP, as I've suspected, was really and truly engaging in malicious gossip via Quinn's Stake President, and other loose-lipped persons. I have to wonder if The Good Professor's little tale about learning of this stuff during the mid-1980s was a complete fabrication.

[_Jason Bourne]

What % have you run to ground?

I ran a social sciences statistical program to generate a random number of footnotes which I could check so that I could formulate a conclusion based upon significance and probabilities. Then, with those numbers, I ran to ground about 14 random footnotes. I can thus state that with a 1.5% margin of error there is a significant error in Quinn's footnotes.

Or, perhaps, instead I ran to ground about three of them relating to my ancestors and struck gold on all of them.

I can't recall which I did. One or the other.

Do you have examples per chance?

Not really; they related to some crimes in Springville and Spanish Fork. Indictments, convictions.

It seems odd to me that one would reference a work that one does not think is fairly accurate in what is says or portrays.

It seems odd that you think it would be odd. I may think Bertrand Russell is an illogical atheist but if he says something about Christianity with which I agree, and it supports my thesis, you bet I'd cite him because it is coming from the enemies' camp. Citing people of like mind is like preaching to the choir.

rcrocket

I'd be curious how you calculated the 1.5% margin or error. I'm guessing that you pulled this number out of the air.

Crocket was just trying to bne his ever charming and cutesy self.

[_Jason Bourne]

I may not be entirely familiar with all of Quinn's books, but as far as I can tell he has never published at any academic publisher (except BYU) on any Mormon topic. He may indeed being a national expert on buggery, but he doesn't meet the usual qualifications as a historian if he hasn't published in academic journals.

I would think that BYU counts here.

[_DonBradley]

Hi Scratch,

I don't know how active DCP was in spreading early rumors about Mike's homosexuality. I can tell you that I didn't hear DCP talk about it during discussions I had with him before Mike's "coming out," even though DCP and I talked about sin as a cause of apostasy, and he did report something like this about at least one other prominent scholar. While DCP may (for all I know) have passed on recent rumors about Mike living a gay lifestyle during his BYU employment, I doubt he was spreading such rumors in the early-to-mid 90s.

When you mention Mike's stake president, I assume you mean the one who excommunicated Mike in 1993. I am quite confident that such rumors would not have been spread by the man who was his stake president at the time of Mike's alleged secret offenses. In the mid-1980s, Quinn served on the high council of a stake in Salt Lake into which I moved shortly thereafter. If he was flagrantly living a gay lifestyle, it escaped the attention of both his employer (which retained him) and of the stake in which he served. Indeed, in about 1985, Quinn's stake president (who lived in my later ward), supported him in a disagreement between him and some of the General Authorities (as Mike has described in his autobiographical accounts), strongly implying that Mike was not under any cloud of suspicion for misbehavior.

Mike left BYU because of disagreements with the university administration over academic issues, such as his choice of research topics (post-Manifesto polygamy, magic, etc.). And his divorce was a mutual decision, and not prompted by any infidelity, homosexual or otherwise, on Mike's part. Good feelings continued between Mike and Jan--they continued to cooperate in the child-rearing, to go on family vacations together, etc. And I know, from having spoken with two of them, that his children deeply respect him.

Also, for what it's worth, Mike is an unusually kind and generous person. His concern for his students led to them voting him BYU's teacher of the year, ironically during the year he left BYU. And he gave a great deal of encouragement and advice to me when I was beginning my historical studies of Mormonism just after my mission. He even included me in the Acknowledgments of the second Hierarchy volume for a tiny item I sent mailed him when we first corresponded. The man keeps meticulous track of everyone who provides him useful sources and insights, so he can be sure to properly thank them in his books.

Early in my correspondence and discussions with Mike, I learned how much his church experience had meant to him. And when I spoke with him after his excommunication, Mike somberly suggested to me that I may want to leave Mormon history, because I might otherwise lose something that meant very much to me--my church membership, as he had lost his. Mike Quinn most certainly did not eagerly jump ship from the church to live a hedonistic life. The loss of his church membership pained, and I believe continues to pain, him enormously.

I don't know who the malicious, traitorous libertine described by Crocket and others is. But I can tell you that it's not Mike Quinn.

Don

Don, thank you for chiming in, and for completely embarrassing rcrocket.

I was especially interested in this:

On Mike Quinn's homosexuality:

1) Contrary to Bob Crocket's claims, Mike Quinn was not openly gay nor living a gay lifestyle anywhere near 1980, nor at all while he worked for BYU. Mike didn't even tell his own parents of his homosexual orientation until shortly before his Same-Sex Dynamics book in the 1990s. And he lived a completely heterosexual, married lifestyle until his divorce in the late 80s.

2) Contrary (again) to Crocket's assertions, there weren't rumors of Mike being gay during his time at BYU. Colleagues of Mike's with whom I've spoken didn't hear about his homosexual orientation until well into the 90s.

What this shows is that DCP, as I've suspected, was really and truly engaging in malicious gossip via Quinn's Stake President, and other loose-lipped persons. I have to wonder if The Good Professor's little tale about learning of this stuff during the mid-1980s was a complete fabrication.