Where does Gordon live?

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_DonBradley
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Re: Where does Gordon live?

Post by _DonBradley »

GoodK wrote:
DonBradley wrote:
GoodK wrote:I read somewhere it was a multi-million dollar mansion, anyone know anyother details??
I also want to know about salary/stipend pay for General Authorities and any other indicators that the executives of the church have a compelling interest to keep attendance high.


Good God, GoodK! Do you really think the GAs take more than a negligible fraction of the church's billions of dollars? What evidence is there for that?? I have yet to see or hear any. Living in Salt Lake, you see GAs around sometimes, and they decidedly do not appear to me to be living high on the hog. I once saw James E. Faust leaving the grocery store in an ordinary car and while wearing ordinary clothes. Another GA, one of the 70, lived in our ward. He was reasonably well off, but clearly not living in luxury. And I'll never forget seeing Elder Hales, then the presiding bishop, at the $2.50 barber, where I'm sure all the important people went for hair care.

If you can see only self-serving reasons why the LDS leaders would continue in their positions, you need to look a little closer.

Don



Hi GoodK,

Fishing for evidence that they are wealthy is rather like fishing for evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. Shouldn't you rather explore to see what the evidence is in either direction?

I know of no evidence that they live lavish lives, and I offered a bit of my own observation of them living rather ordinary lives. I don't claim there's anything definitive about these paltry observations. But I fail to see why evidence, even minor evidence, in the opposite direction from what you're fishing for is irrelevant to the question of whether they are likely motivated by avarice.

by the way, I loved your response to DCP on the term "anti-Mormon" using his comments on the term "cult." It was perfect.

Don
_GoodK

Re: Where does Gordon live?

Post by _GoodK »

DonBradley wrote:
GoodK wrote:
DonBradley wrote:
GoodK wrote:I read somewhere it was a multi-million dollar mansion, anyone know anyother details??
I also want to know about salary/stipend pay for General Authorities and any other indicators that the executives of the church have a compelling interest to keep attendance high.


Good God, GoodK! Do you really think the GAs take more than a negligible fraction of the church's billions of dollars? What evidence is there for that?? I have yet to see or hear any. Living in Salt Lake, you see GAs around sometimes, and they decidedly do not appear to me to be living high on the hog. I once saw James E. Faust leaving the grocery store in an ordinary car and while wearing ordinary clothes. Another GA, one of the 70, lived in our ward. He was reasonably well off, but clearly not living in luxury. And I'll never forget seeing Elder Hales, then the presiding bishop, at the $2.50 barber, where I'm sure all the important people went for hair care.

If you can see only self-serving reasons why the LDS leaders would continue in their positions, you need to look a little closer.

Don



Hi GoodK,

Fishing for evidence that they are wealthy is rather like fishing for evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. Shouldn't you rather explore to see what the evidence is in either direction?



I have. But I don't consider your story as evidence. I don't mean that to be offensive. I asked the same from the guy who posted the picture.


DonBradley wrote:I know of no evidence that they live lavish lives, and I offered a bit of my own observation of them living rather ordinary lives.
I don't claim there's anything definitive about these paltry observations. But I fail to see why evidence, even minor evidence, in the opposite direction from what you're fishing for is irrelevant to the question



It's not irrelevant, just expect to be asked to back up claims with some sort of reference.


Thanks,

GoodK
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

wenglund wrote:
moksha wrote:
wenglund wrote:

To me, those of us who are trusting of Church leadership ...

Put your trust in God, but keep your powder dry.
--Oliver Cromwell

And audit your financials. That's simple.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_harmony
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Where does Gordon live?

Post by _harmony »

GoodK wrote:I have. But I don't consider your testimony or experience has conclusive evidence. Nothing personal.


I'm still waiting to find out why GoodK didn't ask the person who said GBH lived in a mansion for references. Or at least a little backup. And why come here with the question, instead of asking it on the board it was first posted on?

It's not irrelevant, just expect to be asked to back up claims with some sort of reference.


He did: his own life's experience, observing the GA's in their home environment. But that's not good enough, right, GoodK?

Criminy, that's two. One more strike and I'm going to start believing you're a closet rabid TBM.
_GoodK

Re: Where does Gordon live?

Post by _GoodK »

harmony wrote:
GoodK wrote:I have. But I don't consider your testimony or experience has conclusive evidence. Nothing personal.


I'm still waiting to find out why GoodK didn't ask the person who said GBH lived in a mansion for references. Or at least a little backup. And why come here with the question, instead of asking it on the board it was first posted on?


How do you know I didn't ask that person? You seem so defensive about this issue? Could this be a sign of some sort of ethical conflict you might have with the six figure salaries the general authorities seem to be earning?

I came here to get some information and reliable sources of information, and along with a lot of criticism and personal testimony I received some great references.
harmony wrote:
It's not irrelevant, just expect to be asked to back up claims with some sort of reference.


He did: his own life's experience, observing the GA's in their home environment. But that's not good enough, right, GoodK?


My friend, you really need to re-aquaint yourself with the meaning of a reference and evidence. His own life experience is not verifiable, and while it may be interesting, is not useful as a reference. At least not for me. Right.

And even if I could use it, his life experience says nothing of the salary or stipend pay that those general authorities made. I am sure you really understand this, you just want to be beligerent.
harmony wrote:Criminy, that's two. One more strike and I'm going to start believing you're a closet rabid TBM.


I don't know what you are trying to do, but I've nonchalantly dismantled your two strikes quite easily. Your qualms with me seem so petty when spelled out in plain english:

1. You call for evidence and references instead of personal testimony.
2. You didn't ask for any other references.

What exactly do you have to contribute to this topic?
_TAK
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:47 pm

Post by _TAK »

Slightly off topic but was wondering..
has the Church started ground work on the billion dollar boondoggle to replace Crossroads Mall?
_wenglund
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm

Post by _wenglund »

Jason Bourne wrote:
For those of us who trust the leaders of the Church, and who believe they are accountable to God and not us or mankind, tend to think it not only okay not to disclose their finances, but they are morally obligated to do so under the right of privacy. We tend to feel the same way about our personal finances--I.e. it is nobody's business but our own.


So when the LDS Church did publish financials then I assume you would have pushed for them to close the books. Right?


No. Different circumstances necessitate different choices.

Also, there is a grave difference between your finances and the Churches. The Church is a public charitable organization. It enjoys special privileges you do not have. It receives all its support from donations. You are not and do not. The comparison is not accurate at all. In addition there is also the idea that stewardship generates accountability. We all admit our leaders are human and fallible. We know there has bee mismanagement in the past and in fact it seems that since the books were closed at the same time the mismanagement was going on the Church leaders were embarrassed and decided secrecy was best. By disclosing the finances they become transparent in the area of money and demonstrate they are in fact doing the right things with the money that is entrusted to them.


I agree that to some degree the Church finances are different from individual finances in the ways you suggest (though I don't think it accurate to refer to the Church as a "charitable organization"). I just don't agree that the differences you listed exempt the Church from the privilege or right of privacy. Nor am I certain you are correct about the reason behind the closing of the books. And, I think you are mistaken as to whom the stewardship is accountable to. If there is mismanagement, that is the business of the Chuch leaders, not the members or the public at large. Again, the need for trasperancy is a function of distrust. To me, those of us who trust, and who mind our own business, do not require transperancy from those we trust and whose businees it actually is.

For those who do not trust the leaders of the Church, or who believe they are accountable to contributors, or who are concerned about the perceptions of others who may be distrustful, may think it appropriate to surmount the right of privacy and disclose the finances.


1: There is no inherent right to privacy here.


I disagree.

2: While others here my not trust the Church leaders I do. And I believe it is likely that they handle the finances quite well and that there is no malfeasence going on. From what little information is available it seems they are doing a good job. I may not always agree with how money is spent, like on a large mall-I personally thought that a bad move- but that is ok. I don't have to agree. But transparency puts them above reproach. It is interesting that most large Churches chose to publish their finances for that reason-transparency as well as stewardhip-to show that they are doing the right thing with the widows mite.


Again, "reproach" is in the eye of the distrusters. For those who trust, reproach is not a factor--certainly not sufficient to surmount the right of privacy. I see no valid reason for those of us who trust, to cater to the potential reproach of those who distrust. At least that is how I see it.

Clearly, there is a disagreement--and that is fine. It just that it it doesn't make sense for the distrusters to expect that those who are trusting (which I presume is the case with the Church leaders) to cater to the distrust, and violate their right to privacy. Likewise, it wouldn't make sense were the Church to expect the distrusters to make contributions absent financial disclosure--even given that certain activities in the Church may be somewhat tied to the contributions. Right?


No, I respectfully do not think you are right at all about this.


I can appreciate your difference of opinion, though I am confident in my own point of view.

On balance, do you really think the church will be benefitted by openning the books? If so, how? (If you think that by doing so it will somehow pursuade the distrusting to be more trusting of the Church, or somehow place the Church above reproach in the minds of some, I think you are mistaken.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_wenglund
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm

Post by _wenglund »

TAK wrote:Slightly off topic but was wondering..
has the Church started ground work on the billion dollar boondoggle to replace Crossroads Mall?


I don't know if it is accurate to charaterize the projects as a "boondoggle", but contrustion is under way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

So when the LDS Church did publish financials then I assume you would have pushed for them to close the books. Right?

No. Different circumstances necessitate different choices.


What was different 50 years ago?



I agree that to some degree the Church finances are different from individual finances in the ways you suggest (though I don't think it accurate to refer to the Church as a "charitable organization").


technically I now agree with that as far as definitions go and the tax law. Yet those who give believe that they are donating a charitable contribution to an entity that among other things does do charitable work.

I just don't agree that the differences you listed exempt the Church from the privilege or right of privacy.


Ok. Why?
Nor am I certain you are correct about the reason behind the closing of the books
.

My conclusion is only based on what I have read and the timing of the decision. Why do you think they did this?
And, I think you are mistaken as to whom the stewardship is accountable to.


Why?
If there is mismanagement, that is the business of the Chuch leaders, not the members or the public at large. Again, the need for trasperancy is a function of distrust. To me, those of us who trust, and who mind our own business, do not require transperancy from those we trust and whose businees it actually is.



First, please do not imply I mistrust. Second, what if information came out that causes distrust? Would you be as happy to still give?

For those who do not trust the leaders of the Church, or who believe they are accountable to contributors, or who are concerned about the perceptions of others who may be distrustful, may think it appropriate to surmount the right of privacy and disclose the finances.


I still fail to see where the inherent right to privacy is for a church organization.

2: While others here my not trust the Church leaders I do. And I believe it is likely that they handle the finances quite well and that there is no malfeasence going on. From what little information is available it seems they are doing a good job. I may not always agree with how money is spent, like on a large mall-I personally thought that a bad move- but that is ok. I don't have to agree. But transparency puts them above reproach. It is interesting that most large Churches chose to publish their finances for that reason-transparency as well as stewardhip-to show that they are doing the right thing with the widows mite.


A
gain, "reproach" is in the eye of the distrusters.


No reproach is not in the eye of the distruster. The position is that the leaders are so in touch with the sacrafice members make that they want to make sure that there is never ever any reason for them to not be trusted. They take the widows mite seriously and say take the stance that the sacrifice is often great and the faithful steward is careful and wise with the talents given.

For those who trust, reproach is not a factor--certainly not sufficient to surmount the right of privacy. I see no valid reason for those of us who trust, to cater to the potential reproach of those who distrust. At least that is how I see it.


I trust them. But it is sort of like Ronald Reagen said, Trust and verify.


I can appreciate your difference of opinion, though I am confident in my own point of view.


As am I.

On balance, do you really think the church will be benefitted by openning the books? If so, how? (If you think that by doing so it will somehow pursuade the distrusting to be more trusting of the Church, or somehow place the Church above reproach in the minds of some, I think you are mistaken.)



For me at least it is not an issue about benefiting or not benefiting the Church. There will be critics no matter what they do. It is an issue of accountability and stewardship. I do believe leaders are accountable to their flock for their actions and for completing their duties faithfully. I do not distrust but I do not want to give opportunities for things to happen that would or could cause mistrust. We know that the Church leaders at times have not managed the financial as well. I do not think they were evil or padding their pockets. But it seems that open books persuaded them to become more fiscally sound. Thus I am for transparency.
_TAK
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Post by _TAK »

wenglund wrote:
TAK wrote:Slightly off topic but was wondering..
has the Church started ground work on the billion dollar boondoggle to replace Crossroads Mall?


I don't know if it is accurate to charaterize the projects as a "boondoggle", but contrustion is under way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Ehh .. your right .. Future Boondoggle..
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