jhammel wrote:it does raise a general question (at least to the skeptical mind) of whether the Book of Mormon tended to "learn" from Joseph's life, or did stories of Joseph's life "learn" from the Book of Mormon? (if either)
Good point - but why limit it to Joseph Smith Jr's life? Parallels can also be drawn between Oliver Cowdery's account of his baptism and that of Alma, among other events in the lives of those men.
Following the trail of the gold plates found by the people of Limhi after being hidden up by the brother of Jared is also interesting, as well as the parallels between the life of Mormon and that of Joseph Smith Jr.
jhammel wrote:it does raise a general question (at least to the skeptical mind) of whether the Book of Mormon tended to "learn" from Joseph's life, or did stories of Joseph's life "learn" from the Book of Mormon? (if either)
Good point - but why limit it to Joseph Smith Jr's life? Parallels can also be drawn between Oliver Cowdery's account of his baptism and that of Alma, among other events in the lives of those men.
Following the trail of the gold plates found by the people of Limhi after being hidden up by the brother of Jared is also interesting, as well as the parallels between the life of Mormon and that of Joseph Smith Jr.
There are also some striking parallels between Lehi/Nephi's vision of the tree of life and several dreams had by Joseph Smith Sr. (as described in Lucy's book on the History of Joseph Smith.
Another fun parallel to consider is the pattern of dispensations, which goes beyond visionary appearances by God and the re-establishment of priesthoods, covenants, laws, and ordinances, to also include cycles of beliefs and disbelief among the chosen people, as well as an exodus and establishment of "Zion", found throughout the Standard Works and Church history.
jhammel wrote:it does raise a general question (at least to the skeptical mind) of whether the Book of Mormon tended to "learn" from Joseph's life, or did stories of Joseph's life "learn" from the Book of Mormon? (if either)
Good point - but why limit it to Joseph Smith Jr's life? Parallels can also be drawn between Oliver Cowdery's account of his baptism and that of Alma, among other events in the lives of those men.
Following the trail of the gold plates found by the people of Limhi after being hidden up by the brother of Jared is also interesting, as well as the parallels between the life of Mormon and that of Joseph Smith Jr.
Yes, much has been written about these parallels. I really like the work Tom Donofrio has done to list some parallels,
and I think it's clear that Joseph utilized many sources available to him to write the Book of Mormon, and I think one would need to be blind to not recognize extremely coincidental circumstances in his creation and what was around him in the early 1800s.
you are arrogant! - you should stop it - at times, your actions are antithesis to your board name, and yes I have read Jung. My question is this - did you apply his philosophy in your life as a test for truth? or just read and teach others what he taught?
That question is completely off topic. I don't go along with the complete Jungian theory, no. I think he has bits and pieces of valid phenomena, but he got carried away and went off track. But I taught it in its completeness when I taught about the different theories of personality development.
Your misuse of the term archetype made me wonder what you knew about it, more than a passing acquatinance.
jhammel wrote:it does raise a general question (at least to the skeptical mind) of whether the Book of Mormon tended to "learn" from Joseph's life, or did stories of Joseph's life "learn" from the Book of Mormon? (if either)
Good point - but why limit it to Joseph Smith Jr's life? Parallels can also be drawn between Oliver Cowdery's account of his baptism and that of Alma, among other events in the lives of those men.
Following the trail of the gold plates found by the people of Limhi after being hidden up by the brother of Jared is also interesting, as well as the parallels between the life of Mormon and that of Joseph Smith Jr.
Yes, much has been written about these parallels. I really like the work Tom Donofrio has done to list some parallels,
and I think it's clear that Joseph utilized many sources available to him to write the Book of Mormon, and I think one would need to be blind to not recognize extremely coincidental circumstances in his creation and what was around him in the early 1800s.
But following my point and IF there was borrowing, how would we know that the Book of Mormon borrowed from those experiences, or if stories of those experiences borrowed from the Book of Mormon? The stories as we know them are not documented until after the Book of Mormon - the same can be said for Lucy's telling of Joseph Sr.'s dreams.
Thanks for brining this to our attention, Runtu. Those are indeed some interesting parallels. I doubt Joseph Smith was consciously modeling this on his own experience. The similar language, however, strongly suggests that he drew on the same stock spiritual narrative in both cases.
I posted about the Joseph Smith Sr dream parallels on my blog a few days ago. If anyone's curious, you can read it here.
and I think it's clear that Joseph utilized many sources available to him to write the Book of Mormon, and I think one would need to be blind to not recognize extremely coincidental circumstances in his creation and what was around him in the early 1800s.
What has been most interesting for me is too try and match the characters to their real-world counterparts, based on the text and historical accounts.
Establishing the order of the books before their "redaction" by Mormon and subsequent abridgements and insertions by Moroni is interesting, too. Brent Metcalfe places Mosiah first, but I've been toying with the idea that the first part of the book of Ether may have originally been the beginning of the book, though it becomes difficult to theorize what may have been written on the lost 116 pages from this point of view.
I haven't asked Dan Vogel or Brent Metcalfe if they have considered the other characters in the book and who their counterparts may be. I think their theories draw most parallels between Nephi, Mormon and Joseph Smith Jr.
jhammel wrote:But following my point and IF there was borrowing, how would we know that the Book of Mormon borrowed from those experiences, or if stories of those experiences borrowed from the Book of Mormon? The stories as we know them are not documented until after the Book of Mormon - the same can be said for Lucy's telling of Joseph Sr.'s dreams.
I think the pattern is clear, considering so many examples of borrowing (eg, the American Indians being of Hebrew descent and the View of the Hebrews, the similarities of early American leaders statements and the Book of Mormon prophets -- see my link to Tom's work)...and even this good work done by our own Runtu!
If it were only the reports of his own family, etc., you might have a point...but it extends way beyond that.
CaliforniaKid wrote:Thanks for brining this to our attention, Runtu. Those are indeed some interesting parallels. I doubt Joseph Smith was consciously modeling this on his own experience. The similar language, however, strongly suggests that he drew on the same stock spiritual narrative in both cases.
I agree - personally I think the experience was based on his brother Alvin's experience - the brother of Jared's experience in the book of Ether and expanded somewhat by Abinadi. Finding a historical parallel in support of this is quite another thing altogether, of course...
There is, however, some evidence that Joseph Smith Sr and Alvin were both in the Palmyra region in the 1816-17 timeframe, which would correlate to the revival of that time.