jhammel wrote:But following my point and IF there was borrowing, how would we know that the Book of Mormon borrowed from those experiences, or if stories of those experiences borrowed from the Book of Mormon? The stories as we know them are not documented until after the Book of Mormon - the same can be said for Lucy's telling of Joseph Sr.'s dreams.
I think the pattern is clear, considering so many examples of borrowing (eg, the American Indians being of Hebrew descent and the View of the Hebrews, the similarities of early American leaders statements and the Book of Mormon prophets -- see my link to Tom's work)...and even this good work done by our own Runtu!
If it were only the reports of his own family, etc., you might have a point...but it extends way beyond that.
I am fully convinced that there was plenty of borrowing going on when it comes to the Book of Mormon. That I don't argue at all, but most evidence of that suggests borrowing by somebody and not specifically borrowing by Joseph Smith. Granted, there is unmistakable reference to Joseph Smith within the Book of Mormon, so some of it must have been written with knowledge of him. But is it necessary then to view the Book of Mormon (in large part) as some sort of autobiographical account of Joseph Smith? That is a position taken by some, but it seems based on many of the observed parellels that aren't as strong as the unmistakable. If some of the stories of Smith's life and that of his family are based on the Book of Mormon, rather than the other way around, then the Book of Mormon looks a lot less like a Smith autobiography, and rather just a book that conveniently refers to him in some places. So I'm wondering when you see the a Book of Mormon parallel that coincides with reported events in the lives of the Smiths and some sort of borrowing is suspected, do you have a way of determining what came first, when the report itself came some time after the Book of Mormon? Is it assumed, or otherwise reasoned out by eliminating the possiblity that the Book of Mormon influenced the report? I don't think that the Book of Mormon is a Smith autobiography in the way suggested by some authors, and those works that claim it is seem to rely heavily on parallels that use accounts written after the Book of Mormon (Lucy Mack Smith's account being a major source). Does it seem reasonable to doubt such conclusions, or is there something about about the parallels that insists that any borrowing runs primarily one way and not the other?
Thank you very much for that list. I had overlooked parallels 2, 7, and 9, but will overlook them no longer!
by the way, I don't think this was on the list: Each is a calling vision, the launch of the recipient's prophetic career. Lehi's theophany is his "First Vision."
The parallels are, of course, not coincidental. But what do they mean...? ;)
wenglund wrote: There are also some striking parallels between Lehi/Nephi's vision of the tree of life and several dreams had by Joseph Smith Sr. (as described in Lucy's book on the History of Joseph Smith.
Could it be that neither one borrowed from the other but they have a common origin? Sort of like the the "Q" manuscript which is the source for Matthew and Luke? Maybe both documents came from the mind of Joseph Smith? Or perhaps they both came from the collective work of Rigdon, Joseph Smith, & Co.?
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
truth dancer wrote:Could it be that neither one borrowed from the other but they have a common origin? Sort of like the the "Q" manuscript which is the source for Matthew and Luke? Maybe both documents came from the mind of Joseph Smith? Or perhaps they both came from the collective work of Rigdon, Joseph Smith, & Co.?
~dancer~
Interesting, TD - I've been working on what appears to be a common source for the expedition stories in the Book of Mormon, Zeniff, Amaleki, etc.
Could it be that neither one borrowed from the other but they have a common origin? Sort of like the the "Q" manuscript which is the source for Matthew and Luke? Maybe both documents came from the mind of Joseph Smith? Or perhaps they both came from the collective work of Rigdon, Joseph Smith, & Co.?
~dancer~
Please, call me Jeff. :)
Some people here know me and have met me before. Beastie and Shades to name two. I've actually been reading this board for a while, but I just don't have time to engage in many discussions, so I usually just observe.
You're right that there remain at least a few plausible explanations for any First Vision and I Nephi parallel. I think it would be stronger evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon as Smith autobiography if the vision stories were known to be true representations of pre-1830 events, but their appearance after 1830 leaves that in question.
Here's one not mentioned on the website. Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy. Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln.
I can sure see from this list of parallels that Lincolns entire life and Kennedy's entire life originated in the mind of one person. Or maybe two or three. Hm.... do we know if either one knew a person named Rigdon? Or Spalding?
wenglund wrote: There are also some striking parallels between Lehi/Nephi's vision of the tree of life and several dreams had by Joseph Smith Sr. (as described in Lucy's book on the History of Joseph Smith.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Wade, could you give us the details?
I try and look it up in my LDS Collector's library when I get a chance, and paste it here.