for what it's worth, we had 'cupcake' and similar object lessons in the mixed-gender Sunday School classes.
One interesting thing about LDS culture is that the young men are taught that they should be setting sexual limits in dating, not relying on the girls to do so. I don't know how successfully this message is driven home, but it is taught, quite a bit. This strikes me as being at odds with what I know of the larger culture (even pre-sexual revolution), in which women and girls are expected to set and hold the standards, while it's anticipated that men will push them as far as they'll go.
At least in terms of teaching, it seems to me that LDS culture promotes a double standard less than does, or has, the broader culture.
This isn't to say remotely, of course, that men and women are granted equal status within the culture. But I'd be curious what your experience is with respect to the LDS church promoting a double standard of sexual behavior.
Don
I know you posed this to Blixa, but I wish to respond. I hadn't really considered this -- as it's not precisely been framed in this manner, that I've seen? This seems to be at odds with some of what the women on this board have stated. Some of the men on this thread even stated that sexual relations was left to the women. I've also seen talks that suggested that women are faulted for tempting males -- they are responsible for making a man feel aroused. Interesting!
Can't wait to see Blixa's reply.
Speaking of double standards and attempting to rejoin the op: Don, do you see the LDS culture harsher on males that engage in pre-marital sex or are there harsher consequences for females? Is a male consider "used" or spoiled meat the same way a woman is?
I do believe that the LDS church does teach young men to be chaste, and to not take advantage of the young women. But at the same time I think there is the underlying belief that young men have a harder battle due to nature, and that for that reason, a young woman may have to be the one to hold the line, whereas it's assumed that the young women are more sexless. I also have the impression that the anti-masturbation theme is stressed more to the young men then the young women for the same reason.
However, I didn't grow up LDS nor bring my children up LDS, so I am forming my opinion based on what I saw and observed as an adult (and a YW teacher).
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
One thing to keep in mind in terms of the leadership's response to sexual sin - this can vary quite a bit according to the personality and personal opinions and prejudices of the individual leader. Remember, LDS spiritual leaders are not professionally trained in anyway, and a lot is open to interpretation.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:I do believe that the LDS church does teach young men to be chaste, and to not take advantage of the young women. But at the same time I think there is the underlying belief that young men have a harder battle due to nature, and that for that reason, a young woman may have to be the one to hold the line, whereas it's assumed that the young women are more sexless. I also have the impression that the anti-masturbation theme is stressed more to the young men then the young women for the same reason.
However, I didn't grow up LDS nor bring my children up LDS, so I am forming my opinion based on what I saw and observed as an adult (and a YW teacher).
These are the sentiments I've gotten from merely reading experiences on the board. Men are sexual creatures and women are not, essentially. So, if a woman does indeed have sex what does that mean about her? A man is sexual so not so surprising when he slips up, perhaps? Yet, for a woman to be lustful, perhaps, is viewed differently?
for what it's worth, we had 'cupcake' and similar object lessons in the mixed-gender Sunday School classes.
Moniker wrote:Is a male consider "used" or spoiled meat the same way a woman is?
Hmm...so maybe its a stale hot dog rather than a licked cupcake Don?
You had the licked cupcake in Sunday School? Wow! I'm curious how usual this is. Everything I got about "standards" was in gender-segregated mutual classes. Where of course we were told it was up to us to set the limits as the boys were, "different" you know, couldn't control themselves, etc. I do seem to recall some discussion of these things in (mixed gender) seminary classes, but it was pretty general and nothing with the suggestiveness of the "licked cupcake" (the barely subtextual sexuality of which still skeeves me out...*shudder*)
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
thestyleguy wrote:I don't like the way the church treats young women who are single and pregnant. More than one time I have seen the girl excommunicated and the guy is disfellowshiped. This seems so unfair. The church leadership must believe she seduced him. It's sick.
Two times? If you know of any, then you must not have known all the circumstances. I have never seen a young woman excommunicated for becomin pregnant while single. There are rare times when a person who has not been to the temple is excommunicated. I don't know of any at all.
The Church treats young single mothers extremely well. There are programs to help the yong woman through her preganncy and provide all kinds of social services to her.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These are the sentiments I've gotten from merely reading experiences on the board. Men are sexual creatures and women are not, essentially. So, if a woman does indeed have sex what does that mean about her? A man is sexual so not so surprising when he slips up, perhaps? Yet, for a woman to be lustful, perhaps, is viewed differently?
That's my impression. That a sexually lustful woman is strange or flawed in some way. Obviously married LDS men seem to wish their wives were a bit more lustful...but maybe if they were the men would also be a bit bothered. I think there's a bit of the Madonna/Whore thing going on, particularly with the way LDS culture tends to idealize females in general. More spiritual, blessed mother, blah blah blah
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
for what it's worth, we had 'cupcake' and similar object lessons in the mixed-gender Sunday School classes.
Moniker wrote:Is a male consider "used" or spoiled meat the same way a woman is?
Hmm...so maybe its a stale hot dog rather than a licked cupcake Don?
You had the licked cupcake in Sunday School? Wow! I'm curious how usual this is. Everything I got about "standards" was in gender-segregated mutual classes. Where of course we were told it was up to us to set the limits as the boys were, "different" you know, couldn't control themselves, etc. I do seem to recall some discussion of these things in (mixed gender) seminary classes, but it was pretty general and nothing with the suggestiveness of the "licked cupcake" (the barely subtextual sexuality of which still skeeves me out...*shudder*)
I think both genders were told to set limits. I was.
On a side-note I've found that when dating I usually have to stop the girl as opposed to vice-versa. I prefer to think that this proves only that women desperately want me but that MIGHT just be my ego talking.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I don't doubt that the anti-masturbation theme is harped on more strongly for girls than for boys. I've never seen a pamphlet "For Young Women Only" about their "little factory" or equivalent....
As to young women being told they needed to be the ones to set the limits, this is reported from the perspective of having been in the young women's classes. How do you know the same burden wasn't placed on the young men? It was--at least when I was in young men's. In fact, it was part of the curriculum--straight from the manual. There's a particular quote that was frequently used to drive this home--I think from Spencer W. Kimball. It cites the popular belief that young women should set the standards while the boys should just take them for as far as they'll go, and then says that a young man who does this is unworthy--that it's his duty to set limits, and that if he doesn't, (and here it's chauvinistically framed) he isn't honoring his priesthood.
I suppose that the reference to the double standard shows that the standard was not alien within LDS culture. But I can tell you that I grew up believing that I was held to the same standards, and just as accountable for hewing to them, as the young women. The only way I knew there was a traditional double standard was by reading--I didn't experience it. I would have expected to be (at least) as socially and ecclesiastically punished for premarital sex as an LDS girl would have been.
Whatever the vices of the LDS system, I don't think the promotion of a double standard of sexual behavior is one of them.
The Nehor wrote:I think both genders were told to set limits. I was.
On a side-note I've found that when dating I usually have to stop the girl as opposed to vice-versa. I prefer to think that this proves only that women desperately want me but that MIGHT just be my ego talking.
Or maybe you're particularly devout. (Or both!)
As crazy as this would sound from the traditional double-standard perspective, I purposely selected dating partners I thought wouldn't go beyond strict LDS standards. I wanted someone as devout and chaste as I was.