Scottie wrote:It is interesting that he had no problem keeping the normal temple rituals a secret, but as soon as he has to keep the CaEMS a secret, he's suddenly uncomfortable with it.
Why do you think there is a difference there?
I think it's about keeping it a secret from his family. I would have a problem with that as well. Even with keeping the temple rituals a secret, you can still talk about certain things with other endowed members. In this instance, he's being told he can't even do that.
Scottie wrote:Sealing power to bind & loose, curse & bless. - Doesn't every worthy priesthood holder have this??
Blessings of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. - And what are those?
The Holy Spirit of Promise bestowed. - See #1
Blessed to live as long as life is desirable. - Are you SERIOUS?? They are actually ballsy enough to say YOU can now choose when to die if you get your CaEMS??
Blessed to attain unto the Godhood. - What does this mean??
Power to be a member of a Godhead bestowed. - Ok
Sealed up to eternal life - I thought we all had this anyways? Wasn't this God free gift to us?
Power to have the heavens opened. - What does this mean?
In order:
No.
Read the Scriptures and pray about it.
See #1
Yes.
If you've reached that point, you'll know.
Glad you got one.
You're thinking of Immortality.
Again, read the scriptures.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Apparently not, as they were instructed to lie to their families about it.
Not telling someone what you're doing is very, very different from lying to them.
I beg to differ. Here's what he said: "I must not even tell my children. He said I should just tell them that their mother and I were going away for the day or weekend."
That's what I would call at the very least a lie of omission. He mentions being uncomfortable about this counsel, so it sounds like he took it the same way I do. Doesn't really matter, though. My point was that given that they weren't supposed to tell anyone about it, we would not know who had received this ordinance.
Why uncomfortable? Didn't he know about this ordinance and that it was not to be told to anyone? I'm guessing the huge discomfort is an insertion into the story after the fact.
I don't see it as a lie of omission. I see it analogous to a parent telling their children the following:
'Lie of Omission': "Grandpa will be coming to stay with you for a weekend. Mommy and I are going to Hawaii on a short vacation.
Full Disclosure: "Grandpa will be coming to stay with you for a weekend. Mommy and I are going to Hawaii. We're going scuba diving and out to the beach. We also are planning on having lots of sex and have several ideas for positions we want to try out."
I'm with you, Nehor.
LDS members are asked to keep all kinds of secrets. This shouldn't have come to any kind of shock to him, and it certainly shouldn't have made him any more uncomfortable than all the secrets he is already keeping.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Sealing power to bind & loose, curse & bless.
- Doesn't every worthy priesthood holder have this??
Nehor: No
Scottie: How so?
Blessings of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.
- And what are those?
Nehor: Read the Scriptures and pray about it.
Scottie: No thanks. How about you give me the cliffs notes version of what this means.
The Holy Spirit of Promise bestowed.
- See #1
Blessed to live as long as life is desirable.
- Are you SERIOUS?? They are actually ballsy enough to say YOU can now choose when to die if you get your CaEMS??
Nehor: Yes
Scottie: Yes, they are ballsy enough to say this? Or yes, they actually get to choose when to die?
Blessed to attain unto the Godhood.
- What does this mean??
Nehor: If you've reached that point, you'll know.
Scottie: I'll take your word for it.
Power to be a member of a Godhead bestowed.
- Ok
Sealed up to eternal life
- I thought we all had this anyways? Wasn't this God free gift to us?
Nehor: You're thinking of Immortality.
Scottie: What's the difference?
Power to have the heavens opened.
- What does this mean?
Nehor: Again, read the scriptures.
Scottie: See #2
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I still find it amazing that you pay tithing and attend Church despite believing that the whole organization is in terrible apostasy and has been for roughly 170 years. Have the strength of your convictions for crying out loud.
Tell you what, don't tell me how to live my life and I won't tell you how to live yours, Nehor.
I have no problem with the God-breathed part of the church; it's the manmade stuff that bugs me. It's easy to figure out which is which: God doesn't hide. Men hide.
The Nehor wrote:I still find it amazing that you pay tithing and attend Church despite believing that the whole organization is in terrible apostasy and has been for roughly 170 years. Have the strength of your convictions for crying out loud.
Tell you what, don't tell me how to live my life and I won't tell you how to live yours, Nehor.
I have no problem with the God-breathed part of the church; it's the manmade stuff that bugs me. It's easy to figure out which is which: God doesn't hide. Men hide.
Well naïve little me thought one might need the gift of discernment. ;)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Scottie wrote:Sealing power to bind & loose, curse & bless. - Doesn't every worthy priesthood holder have this?? Nehor: No Scottie: How so?
Blessings of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. - And what are those? Nehor: Read the Scriptures and pray about it. Scottie: No thanks. How about you give me the cliffs notes version of what this means.
The Holy Spirit of Promise bestowed. - See #1
Blessed to live as long as life is desirable. - Are you SERIOUS?? They are actually ballsy enough to say YOU can now choose when to die if you get your CaEMS?? Nehor: Yes Scottie: Yes, they are ballsy enough to say this? Or yes, they actually get to choose when to die?
Blessed to attain unto the Godhood. - What does this mean?? Nehor: If you've reached that point, you'll know. Scottie: I'll take your word for it.
Power to be a member of a Godhead bestowed. - Ok
Sealed up to eternal life - I thought we all had this anyways? Wasn't this God free gift to us? Nehor: You're thinking of Immortality. Scottie: What's the difference?
Power to have the heavens opened. - What does this mean? Nehor: Again, read the scriptures. Scottie: See #2
I don't want to give you the Cliffs Notes for 2 reasons:
1. It took a lot of study and prayer to know what I know and to dispense it to satisfy curiosity cheapens it. It denies you the right to search the same way (should you ever choose to). Also, a lot of it came from God and words alone share it very poorly.
2. A wise teacher once told me never to teach at the edge of my knowledge. That's where I'm most likely to be wrong and even if I am right, I'm likely to convey it wrong out of ignorance.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
thou shalt have power over thy Posterity & shall Save all of them
Wow. I think the odds are pretty good that at least one of my ancestors had this ordinance, since they go back to the group that consorted with the First Prophet. Looks to me that this might give me a free pass, in spite of my apostate life. In your face, Satan! I know you're controlling me now, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get me in the hereafter. ;-)
My family has had multiple conversations about this ritual because my sister had hers done before she passed away.
Yeah, it is strange that your parents didn't say anything, or maybe it is more strange that your sister did? (smile)
Did your sister tell you much about it? If so was her account similar to the one posted?
This is a topic that has always interested me, well at least since I found out about it. :-) Which was only after my disbelief. I know believing members today who do not believe me when I tell them there is such a ritual.
;-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
I had seen that posting. It raises some interesting questions to me (as with Truth Dancer, I'd never heard of such a rite until after I stopped associating with the church). First, it seems counter to the concept of final judgment to have someone guaranteed their salvation prior to the completion of his or her life. What would be the basis for such a declaration?
In addition, the extra layer of secrecy is somewhat of a concern to me. Although we may be counseled to not discuss the content of the endowment ceremony, we do not have to hide the fact that we are going to the temple to receive it. Why would the church put such a cloak of secrecy around the rite, if it is something that would be considered to be a great honor?
And although Nehor pretends to have had God explain to him what some of the blessings mean (and boy is that shtick getting tiresome), I wonder what the practical meanings of them would be? Especially this "getting to live as long as you want" thing. That is astonishing. And somehow strikes me as wrong.
Essentially, if this account is accurate, there is definitely a secret caste system in place in the church, which would seem to run counter to the basic principles taught by Jesus.
So does anybody here have any good information on this rite?
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)