Helen Whitney and the Princeton panel presentation

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_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

charity wrote:I understand the frustration. I would like to have some answer, just plain our of curiosity. But that is the point. It is only out of curiosity. It has nothing to do with my salvation, which is the work of the Church and all the leaders. So you (speaking generally, not just skippy personally) want the Prophet to answer the question of how many of the women sealed to Joseph Smith had consummated relationships with him? What does that do for your salvation? NOTHING. Was part of the presentation of the endowment taken from a Masonic ritual? What does that have to do with your salvation? NOTHING. Where exactly was the city of Zarahemla? What does that have to do with your salvation? NOTHING.

That's the point.


Here is where we differ (and which would explain, at least in part, our relative positions with respect to the LDS church). Although I understand that your post is not directed to me personally, those issues are important (although some are not as important as others) in determining the underlying veracity of the church's claims.

So yes, while it may not matter how many of his wives Joesph Smith may have slept with, it does matter to me that he instituted a practice that does not appear to me to originate from God, but was rather an archaic way to exploit and enhance his power (there is definitely power in taking other's wives and handing wives out to his loyal followers). That goes to the root of whether he was a man of God, or just a man interpreting the religious ideologies of the day. What does that have to do with my salvation (assuming I were to believe in such a thing)? Well, it would affect whether the path to salvation defined by Joseph Smith was from God or of his own making. Was he a prophet, or an astute leader of men?

If the endowment rites were simply repurposed Masonic rituals, uninspired of God, then they have little to do with being the "signs and tokens" needed to gain entrance to the kingdom. And my reliance on them, rather than on what may be the true path of God, would have everything to do with my salvation.

And finally, if there was no city of Zarahemla, as evidenced by the leadership's inability to discern its location, then the basis of the Book of Mormon is false, and again we are back to the problem of basing one's salvation on the representations of a man-made religion.

So while these issues mean nothing to you, since you believe whole-heartedly in the veracity of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, you should still be able to at least intellectually understand how others may think that they do impact their salvation. If those three things (amongst a host of others) cannot be properly addressed, it follows that those who do seek God may need to look elsewhere for their salvation. Or they may determine that there is no God from whom to seek salvation. Either way, the issues can be quite important.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
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_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Dartagnan

Yes he did lie, but he lied for the lord to protect the church, and there is biblical precedent for lying as in the case of Abraham and Sariah.. So that makes it okay in that context. Do I pass as an apologist!!!

The church also sells a vision of families are forever (at least my mission did) based on the idea of one man, 'one woman' and children being together for eternity because they are sealed as such in the temple.

What the church doesn't tell the investigator is that should 'one woman' die, then next woman comes along gets sealed to 'one man' and thus the polygamous relationship carries on into the eternities.

Polygamy is still a central tenet of Mormonism and the Mormon celestial heaven even if it is not practiced in my opinion.

I mention it, because it seems to be another area in which members want to obfuscate..

Mary
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

TD, the Church is about salvation. It isn't about LDS Trivia The Home Game. That's what those questions are. I haven't seen any questions by critics that impact salvific doctrines of the Church. Now, if Kevin is going to include anything that any leader of the Church has ever said (taught) which has nothing to do with his salvation, he is going to stay lost in the fog in his own mind.


It is so odd to me that you equate church doctrine with an "LDS Trivia The Home Game," (whatever that is).

You speak to an important point...

What is true about the church, other than it is true?

Joseph Smith restored the one and only true church. What is the true church? The one Joseph Smith restored. What does it teach? That the church is true? What is true? that Joseph Smith restored the true church. And on and on it goes.

You can share your opinion but it says nothing about what is doctrine.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

truth dancer wrote:What is true about the church, other than it is true?

Joseph Smith restored the one and only true church. What is the true church? The one Joseph Smith restored. What does it teach? That the church is true? What is true? that Joseph Smith restored the true church.


The church that Joseph restored no longer exists.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

harmony wrote:
truth dancer wrote:What is true about the church, other than it is true?

Joseph Smith restored the one and only true church. What is the true church? The one Joseph Smith restored. What does it teach? That the church is true? What is true? that Joseph Smith restored the true church.


The church that Joseph restored no longer exists.


Did it ever?

I mean, what unique principles that Joseph is supposed to have restored did he restore?

The church touts itself as having all sorts of unique doctrines "restored" that didn't exist elsewhere. But what are those?

*That families can be together forever? Nope, other churches already believed that at the time of Joseph Smith.

*That salvation can reach beyond the grave? Again, other churches already practiced and professed this.

*That men can be gods? Again, the concept already existed in other churches at the time.

*That laymen can hold the priesthood? Already in existence at the time.

Just where are those "unique" doctrines that were "restored" that didn't already exist at the time of Joseph Smith? They aren't there. So what is this church that Joseph Smith organized? Just a hodgepodge of things he grabbed from here and there and mixed into a pot.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

If it were just a teaching of an idea here or there, but Joseph restored the authority. Without the authority nothing is worthwhile.

The knowledge of whether or not the Book of Mormon is a book of scripture or just a 19th century work of fiction is not based on where Zarahemla is located. The knowledge of whether or not Joseph Smith is a prophet of God doesn't come from all the history of plural marriage. The presentation of the endowment is NOT the endowment, so that doesn't really matter.

The knowledge of the things of God comes from the confirmation of the Spirit, not from histories or geography books. It is all a matter of faith. We hope all things. We believe all things.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

charity wrote:If it were just a teaching of an idea here or there, but Joseph restored the authority. Without the authority nothing is worthwhile.


According to Joseph, he restored the authority (or rather, the authority was restored to him). That does not mean, however, that there were no churches at the time claiming to have authority.

The knowledge of whether or not the Book of Mormon is a book of scripture or just a 19th century work of fiction is not based on where Zarahemla is located.


No, but Joseph Smith's credibility is relevant.

The knowledge of whether or not Joseph Smith is a prophet of God doesn't come from all the history of plural marriage.


No, but Joseph Smith's character is relevant.

The presentation of the endowment is NOT the endowment, so that doesn't really matter.


No, but Joseph Smith's propensity to syncretize from other sources is relevant.

The knowledge of the things of God comes from the confirmation of the Spirit, not from histories or geography books. It is all a matter of faith. We hope all things. We believe all things.


And we "prove all things."

Most other Christians would tell you the same. How is that unique to Mormonism?
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

If it were just a teaching of an idea here or there, but Joseph restored the authority. Without the authority nothing is worthwhile.


LOL!

Where in the world did the idea that God, the creator of the entire universe, needs human men to have "his" authority? This idea sounds so foreign to me... more like a guy who wanted power made it up. ;-) It seriously makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.

The knowledge of the things of God comes from the confirmation of the Spirit, not from histories or geography books. It is all a matter of faith. We hope all things. We believe all things.


And yet the spirit seems to either not relay the correct messages to people, OR various folks think they have received messages from the HG but are totally wrong. Even prophets cannot seem to determine what is or is not inspiration or revelation. (I still have not received an answer to my query... why do people think they can determine what is inspiration when prophets clearly cannot).

I still think believing all things is not a good way to go. In terms of faith... seems to me folks don't really think faith is a good thing UNLESS it is faith in what they believe one must believe.

;-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_charity
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Post by _charity »

truth dancer wrote:
Where in the world did the idea that God, the creator of the entire universe, needs human men to have "his" authority? This idea sounds so foreign to me... more like a guy who wanted power made it up. ;-) It seriously makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.


Because He said. Why would God want people going all over claiming to act for Him and by Him when He was not apporving what they were doing? Of course, He could just strike them dead with a lightning bolt if He disapproved.
truth dancer wrote:
The knowledge of the things of God comes from the confirmation of the Spirit, not from histories or geography books. It is all a matter of faith. We hope all things. We believe all things.


And yet the spirit seems to either not relay the correct messages to people, OR various folks think they have received messages from the HG but are totally wrong. Even prophets cannot seem to determine what is or is not inspiration or revelation. (I still have not received an answer to my query... why do people think they can determine what is inspiration when prophets clearly cannot).


Here is the answer to your question. You have a wrong premise in your question. The Prophets clearly CAN. And so of course, other humans can, also.
truth dancer wrote:I still think believing all things is not a good way to go. In terms of faith... seems to me folks don't really think faith is a good thing UNLESS it is faith in what they believe one must believe.

;-)

~dancer~


I think faith is a really good thing. I have faith in a lot of things that are wrapped up in LDS theology.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

charity wrote:
truth dancer wrote:
Where in the world did the idea that God, the creator of the entire universe, needs human men to have "his" authority? This idea sounds so foreign to me... more like a guy who wanted power made it up. ;-) It seriously makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.


Because He said. Why would God want people going all over claiming to act for Him and by Him when He was not apporving what they were doing? Of course, He could just strike them dead with a lightning bolt if He disapproved.


Or just disappear for 1800 years.

Where did God tell men he was giving them authority, Charity? And where did he tell them he was taking it away?
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
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