guy sajer wrote:Believers need to ask themselves this question:
If this were any other person who told various conflicting accounts of such a supposedly significant event in his/her life, would they find him/her credible?
I think we all know the answer to this question.
Joseph Smith could have been caught copulating with a horse, while cursing up a blue streak, beating up some child with one hand, while injecting heroine with the other, and believers would still find some way to explain it away all nice and tidy.
If I told you the story of my first vision when it happened, two years later, four years later, and now you'd think I wasn't credible either. My understanding of the event has changed and I also had the opportunity to relive it and discover details I missed the first time.
That's not the question. If this were someone else making similar claims as Joseph Smith, but who changed the story over time, would you find him/her credible (assuming you did not have a vested emotional interest in it)?
I might, it depends. I don't judge the validity of a vision in the same way I would judge the credibility of a witness to a crime. Very different things.
Would you establish different criteria for validity of a vision as opposed to a visitation?
No.
So which do you think Joseph Smith had, a vision or a visitation?
Do you think it matters?
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
the road to hana wrote: So which do you think Joseph Smith had, a vision or a visitation?
Do you think it matters?
I think it was a visitation. Whether or not visions also occurred I can't guess and I'm not sure Joseph could be sure either. There isn't a ton of data on how visitations work. We'd need more and more detailed accounts.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: There isn't a ton of data on how visitations work. We'd need more and more detailed accounts.
Actually there is a ton of data about how visitations work. They just use a different name: halluecinations. Pretty amazing stuff.
Sorry Harm. I've had both. Quite a difference.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: There isn't a ton of data on how visitations work. We'd need more and more detailed accounts.
Actually there is a ton of data about how visitations work. They just use a different name: halluecinations. Pretty amazing stuff.
Sorry Harm. I've had both. Quite a difference.
Details, please.
When I hadn't slept for 3 days and was sitting in a classroom in a delirious state I looked to the other side of the lecture hall and saw a green goblin taking notes. That was a hallucination. When I was sick with fever and saw clouds swirling out of control and forming a tornado on a bright and clear day that was a hallucination. When I was delirious with painful kidney stones and kept seeing black hands at the edge of my vision that was a hallucination.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: There isn't a ton of data on how visitations work. We'd need more and more detailed accounts.
Actually there is a ton of data about how visitations work. They just use a different name: halluecinations. Pretty amazing stuff.
Sorry Harm. I've had both. Quite a difference.
Details, please.
When I hadn't slept for 3 days and was sitting in a classroom in a delirious state I looked to the other side of the lecture hall and saw a green goblin taking notes. That was a hallucination. When I was sick with fever and saw clouds swirling out of control and forming a tornado on a bright and clear day that was a hallucination. When I was delirious with painful kidney stones and kept seeing black hands at the edge of my vision that was a hallucination.
Let's hear the non-hallucinations.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
The Nehor wrote: There isn't a ton of data on how visitations work. We'd need more and more detailed accounts.
Actually there is a ton of data about how visitations work. They just use a different name: halluecinations. Pretty amazing stuff.
Sorry Harm. I've had both. Quite a difference.
Makes no difference what you had, Nehor. What makes a difference is what Joseph had.
True, I'm just trying to present an analogy. Harmony, I thought you believed Joseph was inspired until he completed the Book of Mormon.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: There isn't a ton of data on how visitations work. We'd need more and more detailed accounts.
Actually there is a ton of data about how visitations work. They just use a different name: halluecinations. Pretty amazing stuff.
Sorry Harm. I've had both. Quite a difference.
Details, please.
When I hadn't slept for 3 days and was sitting in a classroom in a delirious state I looked to the other side of the lecture hall and saw a green goblin taking notes. That was a hallucination. When I was sick with fever and saw clouds swirling out of control and forming a tornado on a bright and clear day that was a hallucination. When I was delirious with painful kidney stones and kept seeing black hands at the edge of my vision that was a hallucination.
Let's hear the non-hallucinations.
Nah.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo