Do they know it's not true?

[_DonBradley]

My LDS past is similar to yours, Inconceivable.

If the Universe had given me a vote, I would have voted that Mormonism be true, and joined the campaign. In fact, my life was my vote. I lived as though it were not only true, but all-important. But, of course, the Universe didn't give me a vote, as it doesn't give it to any of us. Wanting it to be true, having it be so central to my life, didn't change the faith-unfriendly reality that the evidence gradually revealed.

Who wouldn't to live forever? And with their family? And join in God's creative work?

But a wish is not a fact. And learning that is just part of growing up.

Don

[_Inconceivable]

My LDS past is similar to yours, Inconceivable.

If the Universe had given me a vote, I would have voted that Mormonism be true, and joined the campaign. In fact, my life was my vote. I lived as though it were not only true, but all-important. But, of course, the Universe didn't give me a vote, as it doesn't give it to any of us. Wanting it to be true, having it be so central to my life, didn't change the faith-unfriendly reality that the evidence gradually revealed.

Who wouldn't to live forever? And with their family? And join in God's creative work?

But a wish is not a fact. And learning that is just part of growing up.

Don

Then you are right about at least two things. I certainly have no idea what you were arguing about.

[_Runtu]

Yea, they are all liars, knaves, deceivers.

The man has been gone five minutes, and I could predict a thread like this. No mercy, let's rip into 'em asap. Expose the fraud.

God, grant me one wish, that people would see virtue and truth beyond their own narrow views of "reality".

Thanks, Runtu. Thanks heaps. I didn't even expect 24 hours grace.

I started this thread because I do think that the leaders believe what they say they believe. Why you think this was a "rip into 'em" effort is beyond me.

[_Blixa]

I think this is a good thread and certainly speaks to something many of us have wondered about and probably will continue to wonder about since there is little way of actually determining "the facts." While it might seem obvious that people in charge would "know," something Don Bradley posted is useful to think about.

4) The General Authorities are chosen for their administrative capacities and devotion, rather than for demonstrations of superb critical thinking, or impressive academic CVs. Why would one expect them to take a historian's or investigator's approach to the church they administer, rather than an administrator's approach? And how would administering the church show them that it wasn't true??

I had not considered this and I think it goes a long way to explaining how someone at the top could both "know" and "not know" things. Given the church's investment in a hierarchical structure with a specialized divison of managerial labor, Don's point has great explanatory power. Who are the "big names" who have been doubters? Administrators? No. Historians and other specialists. An adminstrator is interested in fixing a "problem" rather that inquiring into the reasons for it and consequences and overall meaning of "problems" in general. In this sense the prophet and other leaders are "crisis managers" and their understanding of things is produced by and dependent on that role.

There's more to say on this point, but I've run out of time. Maybe I can return to this thread later as the issue of "sincerety" is connected to other issues in Mormon history that some here may be interested in as well.

[_Maxrep]

Yea, they are all liars, knaves, deceivers.

The man has been gone five minutes, and I could predict a thread like this. No mercy, let's rip into 'em asap. Expose the fraud.

God, grant me one wish, that people would see virtue and truth beyond their own narrow views of "reality".

Thanks, Runtu. Thanks heaps. I didn't even expect 24 hours grace.

I started this thread because I do think that the leaders believe what they say they believe. Why you think this was a "rip into 'em" effort is beyond me.

Runtu,

I would like to say that Ray's aggressive reply toward you is pretty well misplaced.

[_MishMagnet]

I don't believe in the Catholic church but I have no doubt that the Pope does.

[_Some Schmo]

Yeah, I went through a period where I thought the GA's were in on the scam, but for many of the reasons expressed here, I don't really think so any more. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple doubters who are keeping their mouth shut because they like there position, want to keep harmony with their family and friends, etc etc (all the reason people go NOM) but I'm pretty confident they are the exception rather than the rule.

[_charity]

In all the blather, the "I think he thought" stupidity, why don't you read what President Hinckley actually said. I remember this quite clearly from April 2006 Conference, and knew by a witness of the Spirit that President Hinckley was bearing a turthful testimony. If you hearts are in the right place, you will feel that, too, as you read what he said.

"Now, in conclusion, I hope that all of you will remember that on this Sabbath day you heard me bear my witness that this is God's holy work. The vision given the Prophet Joseph in the grove of Palmyra was not an imaginary thing. It was real. It occurred in the broad light of day. Both the Father and the Son spoke to the boy. He saw Them standing in the air above him. He heard Their voices. He gave heed to Their instruction.

It was the resurrected Lord who was introduced by His Father, the great God of the universe. For the first time in recorded history, both the Father and the Son appeared together to part the curtains and open this, the last and final dispensation, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

The Book of Mormon is all that it purports to be—a work recorded by prophets who lived anciently and whose words have come forth "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations" (Book of Mormon title page).

The priesthood has been restored under the hands of John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. All the keys and authority pertaining to eternal life are exercised in this Church.

Joseph Smith was and is a prophet, the great Prophet of this dispensation. This Church, which carries the name of the Redeemer, is true.

I leave you my testimony, my witness, and my love for each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

[_Scottie]

I can tell you this...

There are easier way to make more money than spending the ludicrous amounts of time the GA's spend working for the church.

So, either they truly believe, or they love the mini-celebrity lifestyle. And, I don't see these guys as attention seekers. But I could be wrong.

[_Scottie]

In all the blather, the "I think he thought" stupidity, why don't you read what President Hinckley actually said. I remember this quite clearly from April 2006 Conference, and knew by a witness of the Spirit that President Hinckley was bearing a turthful testimony. If you hearts are in the right place, you will feel that, too, as you read what he said.

"Now, in conclusion, I hope that all of you will remember that on this Sabbath day you heard me bear my witness that this is God's holy work. The vision given the Prophet Joseph in the grove of Palmyra was not an imaginary thing. It was real. It occurred in the broad light of day. Both the Father and the Son spoke to the boy. He saw Them standing in the air above him. He heard Their voices. He gave heed to Their instruction.

It was the resurrected Lord who was introduced by His Father, the great God of the universe. For the first time in recorded history, both the Father and the Son appeared together to part the curtains and open this, the last and final dispensation, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

The Book of Mormon is all that it purports to be—a work recorded by prophets who lived anciently and whose words have come forth "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations" (Book of Mormon title page).

The priesthood has been restored under the hands of John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. All the keys and authority pertaining to eternal life are exercised in this Church.

Joseph Smith was and is a prophet, the great Prophet of this dispensation. This Church, which carries the name of the Redeemer, is true.

I leave you my testimony, my witness, and my love for each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

I hear this same testimony from the CTR B kids in Sacrament meeting.

How is this supposed to convince me??