Marital Manipulation

[_Boaz & Lidia]

I have a daughter, married in the temple, whose husband has left the Church. They have a strong and happy marriage. The husband remained respectful and supportive of her continued faith. They have family home evening, home teachers, he goes to Church to hear the kids speak or perform, does not complain about her attending the temple or doing her callings. He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church.

What does she do, to show her support for him, for his beliefs? Does she allow him to teach their children what he views as the truth? Does she allow him equal time, to take the children to do what he wants to do on Sunday? Does she complain to him that he's not attending church or the temple?

She doesn't complain or berate him for his various forays into different religious activities. She has gone with him to different meetings. He has never settled on another specific religion. She doesn't pressure him to attend church. And of course, she would never pressure him to go to the temple since he can no longer obtain a temple recommend. His idea of a nice Sunday activity is to read the Sunday paper, nap, play computer games. The kids are around when he does all those things. Their cildren are all above 8, and make their own choices about what church to go to. One of them stayed home from Church one Sunday to be with dad, and thought it was boring. The children know that he questions the existence of God.

Women like your daughter will goto church and feel like a social leper. The condescending stares and whispers of "oh that's the lady whose husband left the church.. pooor thing has to go it alone and look at her struggling with those children..."

My wife felt those stinging stares and heard those comments of pity. She kept it to herself. She saw other women with inactive/exmo/nevermo hubbies who needed acceptance would stand up in Relief Society testiphony meetings and cry about how they are trying to help their hubby see the light and that one day they will have the preisthood in their homes... it is just SICK.

No worries for your daughter and the CK, for she will be given to another worthy husband.

My kids JUMPED for joy when my wife stopped attending. They all said it was boring. Now they spend time playing and having fun on sunday instead of being told the coffee drinkers are bad bad bad!(yes my daughters had a WoW lesson where they said that)

How long has your son in law been an exmo? Does he post on exmo boards?

What lead him out?

[_asbestosman]

Your mother in-laws father passed away, or your wife's father? I am sorry to hear that either way.

Actually, both have passed on, but my wife's grandpa (mother-in-law's father) passed away last weekend.

Thanks.

[_guy sajer]

I think you could change the circumstances and come up with what parents in bitter disputes do all the time. I have seen non-LDs couples do it with all kinds of situations. Individuals who have been hurt and betrayed often fall over the edge like that.

But I think the spouse who is leaving the faith bears a lot of responsiblity in how that happens.

I have a daughter, married in the temple, whose husband has left the Church. They have a strong and happy marriage. The husband remained respectful and supportive of her continued faith. They have family home evening, home teachers, he goes to Church to hear the kids speak or perform, does not complain about her attending the temple or doing her callings. He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church.

I also know a family that has broken up, the couple divorced, the dad with Wednesday night and every other weekend with a child. The husband decided the Church wasn't true, constantly harangued his wife over how stupid she was to stay with it, would complain at any effort she made in a church calling, would not allow home teachers, would not allow her to have family home evening.

It isn't about whether a person is a member of the Church or not. It is about respecting and loving your spouse and wanting them to be happy.

I agree. Wow, first time for everything.

Well, let me rephrase, I agree to a point.

Where I disagree is the implied value judgment in the statement, "He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church." I agree that the disbelieving (believing) spouse should respect his/her partner's belief (disbelief). But I disagree vehemently with regard to the children. The disbelieving spouse has as much right as the believing spouse to share his/her beliefs with the children. I see absolutely no reason to assume that the believing parent is somehow priviliged in this regard. A spouse who expects as much is being unreasonable.

As for me, while I respect my wife's beliefs, I will not be disenfrachised as a parent. My children know what I believe and they know why. It is one of my fondest desires that my children leave the Mormon quasi-cult behind. I do not force my views on them; I do not make my love conditional--I have told them many times that I love them and support them whatever they choose. BUT they will have a choice, and I will see that it is given to them.

Frankly, if my wife ever tried to deny me this right, our marriage would not last. (And I should say that if my wife had pulled any of the crap that other spouses have pulled, I don't see our marriage as lasting then either. And I would expect her to feel the same should I try to pull that kind of manipulative BS on her.)

[_beastie]

In the early days of the church, believers were so confident in their beliefs that they proclaimed that if Mormonism was not what it claimed to be, then it was an outrageous fraud that should be exposed.

Todays' believers say something more along the lines of if Mormonism is not what it claims to be, it's still a great religion and lifestyle which no one should criticize - even a nonbelieving spouse who's being forced to donate ten percent of his/her income and allow his/her children to be indoctrinated into a belief system in which he/she no longer believes, but ALSO teaches that he/she is an evil apostate, servant of satan.

[_why me]

I think you could change the circumstances and come up with what parents in bitter disputes do all the time. I have seen non-LDs couples do it with all kinds of situations. Individuals who have been hurt and betrayed often fall over the edge like that.

But I think the spouse who is leaving the faith bears a lot of responsiblity in how that happens.

I have a daughter, married in the temple, whose husband has left the Church. They have a strong and happy marriage. The husband remained respectful and supportive of her continued faith. They have family home evening, home teachers, he goes to Church to hear the kids speak or perform, does not complain about her attending the temple or doing her callings. He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church.

I also know a family that has broken up, the couple divorced, the dad with Wednesday night and every other weekend with a child. The husband decided the Church wasn't true, constantly harangued his wife over how stupid she was to stay with it, would complain at any effort she made in a church calling, would not allow home teachers, would not allow her to have family home evening.

It isn't about whether a person is a member of the Church or not. It is about respecting and loving your spouse and wanting them to be happy.

I thínk charity you bring up a good point. It is a two way street. I have read postmormon threads where the pressure to leave the faith by the postmormon spouse can be severe. Pitching books for the believing spouse to read, ridicule of beliefs, seeking advice on how to get their 'TBM' spouse the 'truth' etc.

It is a two way street and there are abuses on both sides of the divide. And you are right, it is about respect for the other's situation in life-meanings.

[_why me]

She doesn't complain or berate him for his various forays into different religious activities. She has gone with him to different meetings. He has never settled on another specific religion. She doesn't pressure him to attend church. And of course, she would never pressure him to go to the temple since he can no longer obtain a temple recommend. His idea of a nice Sunday activity is to read the Sunday paper, nap, play computer games. The kids are around when he does all those things. Their cildren are all above 8, and make their own choices about what church to go to. One of them stayed home from Church one Sunday to be with dad, and thought it was boring. The children know that he questions the existence of God.

Too bad she isn't president of Relief Society's general board. She could teach them a few things about what's important, and maybe she could get what's important out to some of our less supportive more manipulative daughters of Zion.

And vice a versa too. All need to become more compassionate, understanding and charitable toward spouses. However, if I were a active member and my spouse was hostile toward the church, I would take it as a personal hostility toward me. And that would be a problem.

[_why me]

Todays' believers say something more along the lines of if Mormonism is not what it claims to be, it's still a great religion and lifestyle which no one should criticize - even a nonbelieving spouse who's being forced to donate ten percent of his/her income and allow his/her children to be indoctrinated into a belief system in which he/she no longer believes, but ALSO teaches that he/she is an evil apostate, servant of satan.

You have generalized too much in your post. First, what does the Mormon church claim to be and who is too decide that it isn't what it claims to be? Also, Mormonism does promote a great lifestyle with minor hiccups. Third, parents usually indoctrinate their children into a belief system through the home socialization process. The problem comes when this socialization process conflicts between spouses and this was brought out by Charity. Fourth, if the spouse teaches that the other is an evil apostate and a servant from satan, divorce then becomes necessary. Likewise if the disbelieving spouse, teaches that the believing spouse is a nitwit, fool, dupe and idiot.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Your mother in-laws father passed away, or your wife's father? I am sorry to hear that either way.

Actually, both have passed on, but my wife's grandpa (mother-in-law's father) passed away last weekend.

Thanks.

I am so sorry about that, were you close?

I am sorry if this sounds rude, but I just have to say... Oh my holy crud, I am feeling empathy. That's new. I like it, cool.

[_Canucklehead]

He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church.

So he doesn't talk to them about his own views of religion? That's a good thing in your mind?

[_Pokatator]

And vice a versa too. All need to become more compassionate, understanding and charitable toward spouses. However, if I were a active member and my spouse was hostile toward the church, I would take it as a personal hostility toward me. And that would be a problem.

The definition of hostile and hostility is very subjective. Please define.