The unbelieving Fifth Column

[_moksha]

But we aren't really anonymous if someone goes to any work. Your real name is out here, although I don't think you ever posted it. And I know someone who knows your real name. I have never asked her what it is, however. The point is that we are known. That makes what we say not just some anonymous rambling.

Makes me wonder if there is a crew with the Maxwell Institute/More Good Foundation/Strengthening the Members Committee that tracks down these anonymous cowards for later liquidation come the renewed Kingdom of Deseret. That would serve them right for being such poopy pants to the Lord's own apologists.

[_the road to hana]

I think I am very charitable, only on behalf of those who might become victims of the sheep in wolves clothing.

I really am sympathetic for those peeople who are struggling with issues. But once they have "resolved" their problems, and the resolution has led them to the conclusion that everything about the Church is wrong--the leaders, the doctrine, the history, the members--AND that resolution wants them to "enlighten" every one around them, then I lose my sympathy. They become an enemy to the Church and God. Jesus said it was better for a millstone to be hung around their necks and then drop them in an ocean. Does that sound any less charitable than what I have said?

How do you know that Jesus wasn't talking about Joseph Smith? Or about you?

People who leave other churches to become Mormon generally try to persuade their family members to also leave their former churches to become Mormon; do you disagree? How is that different?

[_John Larsen]

I really am sympathetic for those peeople who are struggling with issues. But once they have "resolved" their problems, and the resolution has led them to the conclusion that everything about the Church is wrong--the leaders, the doctrine, the history, the members--AND that resolution wants them to "enlighten" every one around them, then I lose my sympathy. They become an enemy to the Church and God. Jesus said it was better for a millstone to be hung around their necks and then drop them in an ocean. Does that sound any less charitable than what I have said?

There ain't no good guys;
There ain't no bad guys;
there's only you and me-
And we just disagree.

[_Pokatator]

Will is paranoid.

Charity you are in bad need of some psychotropics.

Other than that this thread is very entertaining.

[_Some Schmo]

...they are sheep in wolves clothing and their status should be known. Not as members, but as apostates.

I think I am very charitable, only on behalf of those who might become victims of the sheep in wolves clothing.

I find it very interesting that charity made this mistake not once, but twice. A sheep in wolves [sic] clothing? Isn't it usually a wolf disguised as a sheep, not the other way around?

What does this little Freudian slip tell us about charity's true feelings about these people that have to hide their apostasy at church? Could there be some underlying sympathy there?

Maybe charity's the one the church needs to worry about.

[_cksalmon]

But we aren't really anonymous if someone goes to any work. Your real name is out here, although I don't think you ever posted it. And I know someone who knows your real name. I have never asked her what it is, however. The point is that we are known. That makes what we say not just some anonymous rambling.

I didn't go to any work. I read the article you referred to, which contained your name. I figured that if you didn't want that information made public, you wouldn't have referred us to the article.

And I have posted my real name many times. Chris Smith mentioned just last night that I can't be called anonymous because everyone knows my name is John Williams. It's no secret, and you don't have to ask your friend.

That was Chris Salmon, John.

Loved your work for Minority Report, by the way.

[_Runtu]

That was Chris Salmon, John.

Loved your work for Minority Report, by the way.

Sorry about that. It's hard to keep the Chrises straight sometimes. They're both nominal Christians, hate Mormonism and Mormons with a passion, and have zero integrity (well, at least to some people).

Minority Report, nothing. I'm still raking in the residuals for the Star Wars series, even the last 3 really crappy ones.

[_beastie]

The following appears in a FAIR wiki article on the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

"If someone comes to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon is not historical at all, is there a place for him in the Church? Probably. We cast a very broad net. That person cannot go around teaching his heterodox views on the subject, but if he is willing to keep them to himself, he can be a contributing active member of the Church, simply bracketing the historicity issue."

Did you notice? The "very broad net" means that the person understands that his understanding is NOT Church approved. And he must not teach it.

I don't think Will is talking about issues which the person is keeping to himself. By speaking out, the person places him/herself outside the tent.

Oh, believe me, I know Mormons are FINE with anyone as long as they KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT.

But Will is talking about ferreting out people. He wouldn’t have to ferret them out if they were openly TEACHING their naughty ideas.

Runtu asked:

So, expressing an opinion equals "teaching"?

Charity replied:

Yes.

Oh for heaven’s sake.

Charity:

The ones who are hiding their real attitudes, the ones who are pretending to be someting they aren't, don't threaten all I believe and hold dear. They can't threaten me. But they are attacking the Church and damaging others. They aren't my enemy. They are an enemy to God.

For all you know, the Evs are right and it’s Mormonism that is an enemy to God.

And that belief, by the way, is how some of them justify their obnoxious behavior. See, when you label someone an “enemy of God” then any sort of bad behavior is justified towards them. You’re just fighting Satan, after all.

[_Jason Bourne]

I'm all for honesty. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS TRUE, I have no problem with you continuing to attend meetings on the following conditions:

Who cares what you are or are not ok with. It is not your place to decide. [/quote]

You are absolutey correct.

Yep. So here is a suggestion for you and Willy boy. Back off.

Don't lie to the bishop to get a temple recommend.

So you and will who are not the persons bishop and do not know what they told the bishop are all for publicalaly exposing these so called fringe apostates. Why is it his job. [/quote

]

Except for what they say here about what they believe and think. are we sure they are being as honest in person with their bishop as they are here anonymously? It is his job. And it is their condemnation if they are lying to him.

Yes. So whether you are sure or not does not matter one whit. I think you and especially Will are treading on thin ice. If Will were to go on some witch hunt and I were his bishop or SP I may be talking to him about a bit of discipline to reign him in. Such actions would destroy a ward or stake in no time at all.

Yep, it's the spin I am concerned about. If they are teaching a roomful of adults, there will be those who can stop the wobble if it gets too bad.

If you have a member in your ward that you are concerned about bring it up to your bish and let him deal with it. Then butt out.

Don't speak out against any doctrine or teaching which is a part of Church doctrine or teachings inside any Church building.

Unless Will is the persons bish or SP it is none of his damn business. or use miss un charity. You really need to change your screen name. You do not emulate the pure love of Christ.

I think I am very charitable,

Apparently You need to study this doctrine more deeply

I really am sympathetic for those peeople who are struggling with issues.

I couln't tell it from your postings.

But once they have "resolved" their problems, and the resolution has led them to the conclusion that everything about the Church is wrong--the leaders, the doctrine, the history, the members--AND that resolution wants them to "enlighten" every one around them, then I lose my sympathy. They become an enemy to the Church and God. Jesus said it was better for a millstone to be hung around their necks and then drop them in an ocean. Does that sound any less charitable than what I have said?

But who are you to judge or know? Or Will? Of course I would have an issue with someone sneaking and trying to lead others away. I have questions, concerns and doubts but I have only expressed them to my SP and some very close friends. A few others have asked some probing questions of me about things they wonder about and I refuse to discuss some things with them so I do not sow seeds of doubt. They have to figure things out on their own. But the thing is you and Will do not know anyone's heart and mind really and the Church has a system in place for these things. Self appointed prosecutors are dangerous. I have had some experience dealing with people who are quick to jump on the band wagon when they perceive unorthodox situations and they more often then not are wrong in their conclusions. It takes patience and a cautious and measured approach when dealing with such issue. Some members can be to quick to burn someone at the stake and this is plain wrong.

[_ludwigm]

... waited for about 15 years of meeting with the missionaries off and on before he joined. Two years later he was a bishop.

I could be now ...

In that span, I have attended more times than any active member of that ward (I have accompanied my wife). Always in the front row.

And interesting claim. More than your wife, even? Hmmmm.

I was there for the sake of her, and we have gone together. Certainly, I was there as many times as she.
Or was this only a little practising of always twist a little the opponent's words ?

In God's kingdom, using a counterfeit is a serious offense, too.

I didn't use it, only owned it. And during the driving through countries to the temple, "everybody had the passport and the TR".

Sorry. You don't know what Joseph Smith knew.

OK I don't know that.
But he didn't know a lot, he did prove it, and I know this. (The list is worth another thread.)

I have never speak against doctrines or teachings. I have tried to explain them, with more or less success. (You know, explaining something can be very dangerous ... )

You mean, you explained LDS doctrines through your own lens and knowledgte of the "truth?"

I told exactly what I mean. Please don't twist again!
As a professed teacher, I know when a student repeats the text but doesn't understand. I was sitting there, on SS or PQ. It would have been more boring to listen people, who want to teach what they themselves don't know.
Nota bene, "explaining through a lens" is a beautiful catachresis.

I think I understand very well.

Sorry, You don't. Understanding the reality around You - no, that is not Your strongest side.