Zak and metals

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_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

skippy the dead wrote:
CaliforniaKid wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Zak has got to be very young. And he's showing all the young, immature tribal loyalty that we might expect from a particularly excited teenager.


He was already a bishop when I was sixteen. Not that it's been all that long since I was sixteen, but still, I'm pretty sure there's no way Zak's a teenager.


This guy is/was a bishop?? You must be joking. Really?


I take that back. I was thinking that Zakuska was the admin known as "the Bish" on whyprophets.com. But that actually was David Wills. Zakuska was an admin there, but he wasn't the Bish. My bad.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Zak has got to be very young. And he's showing all the young, immature tribal loyalty that we might expect from a particularly excited teenager.


He was already a bishop when I was sixteen. Not that it's been all that long since I was sixteen, but still, I'm pretty sure there's no way Zak's a teenager.


Zak was a bishop 8 or 10 or whatever years ago? OMG. This guy posts with the apparent intellectual maturity of a teenager. What a joke.

edit: oops, nm, CaliforniaKid corrected himself - Zak may well yet be a young'un.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

If I recall correctly, Zak is married and slightly older than me. He's probably in his early to mid 30's.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Beastie, isn't the argument more that there were no bronze or steel weapons? That alloys weren't known to the ancient American people?

I don't think I've heard it disputed that they worked in easily malleable ores, such as copper. Did they work in tin and nickle as well?


I'll try to review my book that talks specifically about the overall history of metallurgy tonight to make sure I'm not misremembering. But for now, in specific to Mesoamerica, towards the end of the postclassic period (around 900 AD) metallurgy was beginning to be used. The main alloy used was tumbaga, which was mainly copper and gold. This was a fairly strong metal, but, If I recall correctly, obsidian was still preferable.

And, of course, different areas of the New World developed metallurgy at different time periods. Peru developed the skill far earlier than the rest of the continent, but it did not spread.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I couldn't help myself, and clicked on one of zak's links. It's to a reprinting of a book from 1939, called Atlantis, Mother of Empires.

(insert smile)

Wiki's comments on the author:

Robert Stacy-Judd (1884-1975) was an American architect and author who designed theaters and other commercial buildings inspired by Maya architecture. His most celebrated building is the Aztec Hotel in Monrovia. Stacy-Judd was a friend of the writer T. A. Willard, who published a fanciful account of his travels to Chichen Itza. Possibly inspired by his friend, Stacy-Judd published several popular books on Maya culture that blend fact and fiction.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stacy-Judd
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

beastie wrote:I couldn't help myself, and clicked on one of zak's links. It's to a reprinting of a book from 1939, called Atlantis, Mother of Empires.

(insert smile)

Wiki's comments on the author:

Robert Stacy-Judd (1884-1975) was an American architect and author who designed theaters and other commercial buildings inspired by Maya architecture. His most celebrated building is the Aztec Hotel in Monrovia. Stacy-Judd was a friend of the writer T. A. Willard, who published a fanciful account of his travels to Chichen Itza. Possibly inspired by his friend, Stacy-Judd published several popular books on Maya culture that blend fact and fiction.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stacy-Judd


A large number of his recent "sources" have some relation to Atlantis. I swear, he falls for just about every "out-there" theory on the Internets, and cites it as evidence for. . . well, I don't know what. I'm expecting to hear him on "Coast-to-Coast AM" one of these days.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
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_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

beastie wrote:
Beastie, isn't the argument more that there were no bronze or steel weapons? That alloys weren't known to the ancient American people?

I don't think I've heard it disputed that they worked in easily malleable ores, such as copper. Did they work in tin and nickle as well?


I'll try to review my book that talks specifically about the overall history of metallurgy tonight to make sure I'm not misremembering. But for now, in specific to Mesoamerica, towards the end of the postclassic period (around 900 AD) metallurgy was beginning to be used. The main alloy used was tumbaga, which was mainly copper and gold. This was a fairly strong metal, but, If I recall correctly, obsidian was still preferable.

And, of course, different areas of the New World developed metallurgy at different time periods. Peru developed the skill far earlier than the rest of the continent, but it did not spread.



Hello There Beastie,

Most LDS Apologists of the Book of Mormon do believe that the land of the Jaredites was located in Mesoamerican. There is Absolutely No evidence of steel words being used by anybody in the Mesoamerican area before 200 B.C.E. However, there is an LDS Apologist of the Book of Mormon who believes that the Jaredites landed in the Peru area, and he believes that the Jaredites' land was located in the area of Peru and Equador. This LDS Apologists of the Book of Mormon name is George Potter. The Following Here is now Part of the Article Titled, 'Did the Jaredites Land in Peru?,' Written by Book of Mormon LDS Apologist, George Potter:


Problems with a Mesoamerica Model for the Jaredite Lands


Although nearly all the popular LDS literature on the Jaredites places them in Mesoamerica, usually associating them with the Olmec civilization, such Mesoamerican models are problematic. First, the record of the Jaredites was inscribed on golden plates (Mosiah 8,9) and early Jaredite warriors fashioned swords out of some form of steel (Ether 7:9). However, no archaeological evidence of metalworking has been shown to exist in Mesoamerica until the first century BC, long after the fall of the Olmec civilization (400-200 BC). There is only scant evidence of any metalwork in Mesoamerica before 900 AD. Book of Mormon scholar John Sorenson notes that the only significant evidence for metalwork in Mesoamerica dates back to only AD 900 A.D.4 On one hand, the Jaredites were working metal since their earliest years in the New World. On the other hand, archaeologists have uncovered extensive Peruvian metalwork dating back to almost the dawn of the Jaredite Age. Sorenson summarizes it this way:

Archaeologists only recently learned that metal was being worked in Peru as early as 1900 B.C., and it was being traded in Ecuador before 1000 B.C. [J. W. Grossman, "An Ancient Gold Worker's Tool Kit: The Earliest Metal Technology in Peru," Archaeology 25 (1972):270-75; A. C. Paulsen, "Prehistoric Trade between South Coastal Ecuador and other Parts of the Andes" (Paper read at 1972 Annual Meeting, Society for American Archaeology). Dates given in these papers need to be corrected backward to accord with bristle-cone pine corrections.] At the same time, all Mesoamerican scholars agree that intercommunication with Peru and Ecuador occurred over a period of thousands of years. Some definitely believe that it was via these voyages that metalworking reached Mexico and Guatemala. At the same time, we are asked to suppose that something as valuable as metal waited to be carried north until A.D. 900; then, suddenly, the metal connection finally "took."5

One of the earliest chronicles of the Incas was written in the 1550s by Juan de Betanzos. According to his interviews with the remaining Inca nobles, the Incas needed to keep records because “some said they had livestock, others, great fields of maize, others, gold mines, others, silver mines, others, much wood.”6 The Inca inventories bring to mind Nephi’s account of the resources he found in the Promised Land—seeds growing exceedingly well, forests, livestock, ore, both of gold, silver and copper (1 Nephi 18:24,25). Much of the famed pre-Columbian Peruvian gold was actually an alloy with copper.7


Secondly, the Bible records seem to indicate that the flood occurred somewhere around 2400 BC8. However, Egyptian and Chinese histories predate that time, so the flood could have occurred nearly a thousand years earlier [circa 3500 BC]. The Book of Mormon tells us that the Jaredites built barges and sailed them to the New World shortly after the great flood. Within a few generations of their arrival, the Jaredites had already constructed cities, divided into separate lands, and had fought wars. (Ether 7:9-12). However, signs of a mother-culture in Mesoamerica started appearing about 1800 B.C.9 with the first Olmec cities, or what we could consider a civilization, not being built before 1200 BC.10 Therefore, the Jaredite cities mentioned in the seventh chapter of the Book of Ether were constructed nearly a thousand years before the earliest Mesoamerican cities appeared on the scene. Where then are the early Jaredite cities? The only known remains of large city-states in the New World dating back to the era of the Jaredites are the coastal cities of Peru 3200-2500 BC.11

( Link: )


I am wandering what you think about this Part of the Article, Beastie. Take Care!
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Brackite,

I'm on my way out the door right now, but will try to come back to this later this weekend. But trying to relocate any of the Book of Mormon in any area other than Mesoamerica immediately creates an even bigger problem. Mesoamerica was the only area in the New World with the prerequisite population levels to justify the social complexity described in the Book of Mormon.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

beastie wrote:Brackite,

I'm on my way out the door right now, but will try to come back to this later this weekend. But trying to relocate any of the Book of Mormon in any area other than Mesoamerica immediately creates an even bigger problem. Mesoamerica was the only area in the New World with the prerequisite population levels to justify the social complexity described in the Book of Mormon.


Hello Beastie,

Oh Well, An Equador and a Peru setting for the Jaredites in the Book of Mormon, would at least almost pretty much Take care of the Metallurgy Problem in a Mesoamerican setting for the Jaredites, in the Book of Morrmon. The Following Here is from another Part of that Article, Written By George Potter:

The Invention of Metallurgy

Yale University anthropologist Richard L. Burger and Yale geologist Robert B. Gordon recently discovered thin gold and copper foils in Peru. The foils date to 1410–1090 BC. These ancient dates were confirmed by testing the carbon atoms that had collected on the sheets. The gold foils were worked cold, that is, pounded with stone hammers into foils between 0.1 and .05 millimeters thick (.004 to .002 inch).46 The hammering technique for making golden foils or metal plates is an example of a rarely known technology. However, in antiquity such hammered plates were fabricated in the Near East.

The Book of Mormon informs us that well before Nephi fabricated his plates, the Jaredites had created their own book of gold plates (Mosiah 8:9). Nephi started creating golden plates once he was in the Promised Land (1 Nephi 19:1). Therefore, it is conceivable that Nephi learned how to hammer plates of gold in the Americas from a people who had been taught the technique from the Jaredites.

( Link: )
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I haven't studied Peru in particular, so I'm just basing my comments on what I have picked up about it here and there, largely via documentaries and internet articles. So take it with a grain of salt.

There appears to be contradictory opinions about just exactly what type of society existed in Norte Chico, which is what Potter is referencing by the early civilization. This was a preceramic civilization that did not build monuments, nor did it have a written language. They were socially organized, however. Here's an article that gives background information:

http://www.mesoweb.com/reports/caral2.html

Together, the Norte Chico sites indicate an advanced civilization that arose without the development of ceramics—a hallmark of other complex societies worldwide. Yet the researchers found indications of a multifaceted economy based on inland irrigation of cotton and food plants, diverse marine resources and a system of regular exchange between inland and coastal sites. Numerous remains of shellfish and fish bones were recovered at the inland sites.

Researchers also recovered botanical remains of domesticated plants—including cotton, squash, chilli, beans and avocadoes—but found almost no evidence of preserved corn or other grains. “This early culture appears to have developed not only without pottery, arts and crafts but also without a staple grain-based food, which is usually the first large-scale agricultural product of complex societies,” Creamer said. “The ancient Peruvians took a different path to civilization.



One of the immediate problems that becomes apparent is that since the civilization - whatever it was, exactly - at Caral was so much larger than any others, there really weren't any other groups to fight with. So an apologist might be able to resolve one problem - metallurgy - but creates quite a few more with this setting, in my opinion.

from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization


The Norte Chico chiefdoms were "almost certainly theocratic, though not brutally so," according to Mann. Construction areas show possible evidence of feasting, which would have included music and likely alcohol, suggesting an elite able to both mobilize and reward the population.[10] The degree of centralized authority is difficult to ascertain, but architectural construction patterns are indicative of an elite that, at least in certain places at certain times, wielded considerable power: while some of the monumental architecture was constructed incrementally, other buildings, such as the two main platform mounds at Caral,[4] appear to have been constructed in one or two intense construction phases.[9] As further evidence of centralized control, Haas points to remains of large stone warehouses found at Upaca, on the Pativilca, as emblematic of authorities able to control vital resources such as cotton.[10]

Haas has gone so far as to suggest that the labour mobilization patterns suggested by the archaeological evidence point to a unique emergence of human government, one of two alongside Sumer (or three, if Mesoamerica is included as a separate case). While in other cases, the idea of government would have been borrowed or copied, in this small group government was invented. Other archaeologists have rejected such claims as hyperbolic.[10]

In further exploring the basis of possible government, Haas suggests three broad bases of power for early complex societies — economic, ideological, and physical — and finds the first two present in ancient Norte Chico. Economic authority would have rested on the control of cotton and edible plants and associated trade relationships, with power centered on the inland sites. Haas tentatively suggests that the scope of this economic power base may have extended widely: there are only two confirmed shore sites in the Norte Chico (Aspero and Bandurria) and possibly two more, but cotton fishing nets and domesticated plants have been found up and down the Peruvian coast. It is at least possible that the major inland centers of Norte Chico were at the center of a broad regional trade network centered on these resources.[9] Discover magazine, citing Shady, suggests a rich and varied trade life: "[Caral] exported its own products and those of Aspero to distant communities in exchange for exotic imports: spondylus shells from the coast of Ecuador, rich dyes from the Andean highlands, hallucinogenic snuff from the Amazon."[18] (Given the still limited extent of Norte Chico research, such claims should be treated circumspectly.) Other reports on Shady's work indicate Caral traded with communities in the jungle farther inland and, possibly, with people from the mountains.[19]

[edit] Ideology, religion, and warfare
Ideological power would have rested on access to deities and the supernatural.[9] Evidence regarding Norte Chico religion is limited, but fascinating: an image of the Staff God, a leering, cartoon-like figure, with a hood and fangs, has been found on a gourd dated to 2250 BC. The Staff God is a major deity of later Andean cultures, and Winifred Creamer suggests the find points to worship of common symbols of gods.[20][21] Like much other research at Norte Chico, the nature and significance of the find has been disputed by other researchers.[22]

The act of architectural construction and maintenance may also have been a spiritual experience: a process of communal exaltation and ceremony.[17] Shady has called Caral "the sacred city" ("La ciudad sagrada"[3]): socio-economic and political focus was on the temples, which were periodically remodeled, with major burnt offerings associated with the remodeling.[23]

What is absent is any suggestion of physical bases of power. There is no evidence of warfare of "of any kind or at any level during the Preceramic Period."[9] Mutilated bodies, burned buildings, and other tell-tale signs of violence are absent, and settlement patterns are completely non-defensive.[17] This is out of keeping with archaeological theory, which suggests that human beings move away from kin-based groups to larger units resembling "states" for mutual defence of often scarce resources. A vital resource was present (arable land generally, and the cotton crop specifically) but the move to greater complexity was apparently not driven by the need for defence or warfare.[17]

We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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