Jason wrote:I just get tired, like Harmony, of being told be believe and ex believers, like you, that we are lousy fools for so doing.
Agreed. Especially when it seems to be the folks on forums like this one who do this. I would think that the folks here would have a broader understanding of where we're coming from. Maybe not.
I think there are black and white folks -- no matter what the issue. There are B/W Mormons, and exmos; there are militant TBMs, and militant exmos. I think I used to be B/W, but in my transition, I saw so much grey, it took over!
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
I guess since we are talking about the Woodruff Mormons, it does not matter because they are apostate Mormons.
The only "true" Mormons who practice the unchanged theology originally established by Joseph Smith are the FLDS.
Therefore, in my opinion, any Woodruff Mormon, regardless of your activity and/or commitment, you all are wasting your life following something that neither Joseph or Brigham would honor.
Again, I do not condone what the FLDS believe, but I do think that they are the only original Mormons and are the only ones who can claim any persecution past, present, and future. The rest are posers.
Boaz & Lidia wrote:I guess since we are talking about the Woodruff Mormons, it does not matter because they are apostate Mormons.
The only "true" Mormons who practice the unchanged theology originally established by Joseph Smith are the FLDS.
Therefore, in my opinion, any Woodruff Mormon, regardless of your activity and/or commitment, you all are wasting your life following something that neither Joseph or Brigham would honor.
Again, I do not condone what the FLDS believe, but I do think that they are the only original Mormons and are the only ones who can claim any persecution past, present, and future. The rest are posers.
Good points. The funny thing though, is that there are many little Mormon fundie groups that still practice polygamy, that have there own prophet, etc...but conflict with each other. I guess there was even enough wiggle room with Joseph and BY that there is room for interpretation there too.
I've heard it said that the "COJCOLDS" that has survived and thrived is the one that has changed the most -- to accomodate changing times.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
liz3564 wrote:I don't understand this either. I'm so tired of being called a hypocrite because I have found a path that works for me.
I have PP telling me I'm spineless and I'm going to ruin my kids lives if I don't leave the Church completely. I have people like Bob Crockett, BC, and Coggins telling me that if I don't blindly accept everything the Church says, I don't belong there. Oh, I suppose that according to Will the jerk Schryver's comments about wanting to "hunt people down" and report them, I would be on his list, too.
What gives, guys? Why are Jason, Harmony, Moksha, Rollo, and I considered to be such enigmas? Don't you think there are other Mormons out there like us?
There doesn't seem to be any consistency. On one hand, we're doing as we're commanded, seeking our personal inspiration regarding the words of the prophets. On the other hand, we're chastised for finding out some of the words of the propehts weren't God-breathed and our loyalty is questioned. Damned if we do; damned if we don't.
I would call that "just damned"! :-)
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
Jason Bourne wrote:Go back and read what I said and you will see that I agree with you mostly in that one cannot really be a vocal cafeteria Mormon and main issues...
..But to participate and enjoy what one loves, and can enjoy without ruffling feathers can work and such I think are welcome. It does not work for everyone, but it does for some.
I just get tired, like Harmony, of being told be believe and ex believers, like you, that we are lousy fools for so doing.
Fair enough. I understand the NOM mindset.
It's difficult enough to live in Mesa, AZ. I shudder to think what it would be like to live anywhere in Utah where a person can't even take a walk without his ancestors whispering mantras from the dust.
liz3564 wrote:I don't understand this either. I'm so tired of being called a hypocrite because I have found a path that works for me.
I have PP telling me I'm spineless and I'm going to ruin my kids lives if I don't leave the Church completely. I have people like Bob Crockett, BC, and Coggins telling me that if I don't blindly accept everything the Church says, I don't belong there. Oh, I suppose that according to Will the jerk Schryver's comments about wanting to "hunt people down" and report them, I would be on his list, too.
What gives, guys? Why are Jason, Harmony, Moksha, Rollo, and I considered to be such enigmas? Don't you think there are other Mormons out there like us?
There doesn't seem to be any consistency. On one hand, we're doing as we're commanded, seeking our personal inspiration regarding the words of the prophets. On the other hand, we're chastised for finding out some of the words of the propehts weren't God-breathed and our loyalty is questioned. Damned if we do; damned if we don't.
Walk into your bishies office and tell him that your own personal inspired revelatory testimony has been gained for the following and see how far you get:
- 10% tithe on net-net income.. after all bills/taxes have been paid - Beer is ok to drink because it is mild and made from barley - Coffee and tea are drinks you enjoy daily as they are not explicitly identified in the WoW, and you did not receive a confirmation concerning the personal opinions from men who said coffee and tea are wrong - Cigars are ok because you do not inhale the smoke and you smoke them outside as to not even inhale your own second hand smoke - You only wear the Jesus jammies while doing temple work - Jesus told you the temples are too gaudy and he dis approves of them, so you opt to do your own temple ceremonies at home with your wife - You never received a confirmation that every member be a missionary - Home and visiting teaching is outdated .... .. . others?
Harmony wrote:Why is this considered to be such a bad thing, by both ex-mos and TBM's? Why is it so difficult to allow someone to do exactly what we have all been commanded to do?
Amen, Harmony! Cafeteria Mormons unite! :)
I don't understand this either. I'm so tired of being called a hypocrite because I have found a path that works for me.
I have PP telling me I'm spineless and I'm going to ruin my kids lives if I don't leave the Church completely. I have people like Bob Crockett, BC, and Coggins telling me that if I don't blindly accept everything the Church says, I don't belong there. Oh, I suppose that according to Will the jerk Schryver's comments about wanting to "hunt people down" and report them, I would be on his list, too.
What gives, guys? Why are Jason, Harmony, Moksha, Rollo, and I considered to be such enigmas? Don't you think there are other Mormons out there like us?
I think there are tons of Mormons like you, but unfortunately you must remain silent. As you point out, you can't win. If you try to resign because you don't believe everything, the Bishop and SP will tell you you don't have to believe everything to remain a member. If you try to stay and tell people you don't believe everything you will be chastised for disobedience. If you try to fit in in the exmo community you will be told you are a fence sitter that needs to make up your mind.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
liz3564 wrote:I don't understand this either. I'm so tired of being called a hypocrite because I have found a path that works for me.
I have PP telling me I'm spineless and I'm going to ruin my kids lives if I don't leave the Church completely. I have people like Bob Crockett, BC, and Coggins telling me that if I don't blindly accept everything the Church says, I don't belong there. Oh, I suppose that according to Will the jerk Schryver's comments about wanting to "hunt people down" and report them, I would be on his list, too.
What gives, guys? Why are Jason, Harmony, Moksha, Rollo, and I considered to be such enigmas? Don't you think there are other Mormons out there like us?
There doesn't seem to be any consistency. On one hand, we're doing as we're commanded, seeking our personal inspiration regarding the words of the prophets. On the other hand, we're chastised for finding out some of the words of the propehts weren't God-breathed and our loyalty is questioned. Damned if we do; damned if we don't.
Rationalize all you want.
They didn't mean it and we all know it. I think we can all agree that you are fooling them and not us.
I might think you're a little nutty for attempting to hold on to the greased pig, but the GA's see you as a threat to their craft.
liz3564 wrote:I don't understand this either. I'm so tired of being called a hypocrite because I have found a path that works for me.
I have PP telling me I'm spineless and I'm going to ruin my kids lives if I don't leave the Church completely. I have people like Bob Crockett, BC, and Coggins telling me that if I don't blindly accept everything the Church says, I don't belong there. Oh, I suppose that according to Will the jerk Schryver's comments about wanting to "hunt people down" and report them, I would be on his list, too.
What gives, guys? Why are Jason, Harmony, Moksha, Rollo, and I considered to be such enigmas? Don't you think there are other Mormons out there like us?
There doesn't seem to be any consistency. On one hand, we're doing as we're commanded, seeking our personal inspiration regarding the words of the prophets. On the other hand, we're chastised for finding out some of the words of the propehts weren't God-breathed and our loyalty is questioned. Damned if we do; damned if we don't.
Rationalize all you want.
They didn't mean it and we all know it. I think we can all agree that you are fooling them and not us.
I might think you're a little nutty for attempting to hold on to the greased pig, but the GA's see you as a threat to their craft.
We all rationalize. Anyone who thinks they don't is fooling themselves. I am honest enough with myself to know when I'm doing it, but I have no intention of changing just to satisfy someone I don't even know (that would be any ex-mo who feels dutybound to point out the beam in my eye while ignoring the mote in his own... and any church member or leader who feels similiarly inclined). I know that I need to think that my husband think I'm beautiful, even though I look in the mirror and cannot understand how any man would think I was even marginally attractive, let alone beautiful, especially if he's seen me naked. I also know that what I would lose would be far more than I'd gain, were I to leave the church. I also know that I'm not a tidy person, I'm loud and obnoxious without ever taking a drink of alcohol, and while I may be funny on occasion, I'm not as funny as some people think I am. I'm often not nice, not kind, and not cheerful. And I rationalize all those faults away on a daily basis by believing that everyone else does the same thing.
I think it would extremely difficult to live with someone who was always honest. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it. I'm equally sure I would be hellacious to live with were I completely honest.
Participating in the cafeteria (and throwing all those personal inspiration talks in the face of any member who challenges me) is the way I'm comfortable with what life's thrown at me. YMMV.