The worst thing about Mormonism

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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

dartagnan:

I have made it clear that religious truth comes to humans in an unknown way; in a manner that science cannot prove or disprove. For the individual receiving the knowledge, the evidence is clearly there. For every other atheistic knuckledragger demanding "proof" that someone received a legitimate religious experience, there is nothing science can do to help him out since science has not caught up yet. Science tells us barely anything about the human conscience. This is a fact that most rambling atheists don't even realize.


As an atheist whose knuckles usually remain wholly unbruised during normal locomotion, my attitude is as follows. I really don't mind how religious people choose to make their life decisions, so long as:

1. They do not harm others by those decisions.
2. They do not damage themselves so much by those decisions that the rest of us have to pay to pick up the pieces.
3. They do not attempt to coerce others into living their lives according to their personal religious prescriptions.
4. They don't bore or embarrass me by going on and on about the beautiful messages they are getting from the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whether these messages come through a little voice in their head, the warm fuzzies, dreams, waking visions, scripture reading, planchette writing, or reading tea-leaves. Whatever. So long as it makes them happy and keeps them off the streets at night.

However, if they do want to bring the results of the communications received under (4) into the public domain, and ask that the rest of the community (who may not all be Pastafarians or whatever) use the content of those communications to decide whether, for instance, women should have access to effective contraceptive advice if they want it, then my attitude is different. If they want what they may call their 'religious knowledge' to have public effects, then the rest of us are entitled to ask for a public means of checking on the truth-value of their alleged knowledge. You see, suppose I say:

"Providing free contraceptive advice is good because it enables women to plan their families to a size that their family incomes can feed and educate"

Or

"Providing free contraceptive advice is bad because it leads to the exploitation of young girls by men who want to have consequence-free sex"

(I deliberately choose two opposite examples, since my point is the same whether I oppose or support free contraceptive advice)

then if an opponent demands that I justify that belief, I should be able to refer to objective, publicly verifiable and repeatable survey data to back up my claims. But if on the other hand someone quotes the Monty Python scripture that says:

"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great/ If a sperm is wasted. God gets quite irate"

and on that basis opposes the provision of contraceptive advice, then such a claim is by its nature incapable of being publicy verified by those lacking the religious commitments of the person who made it.

To that extent, I suggest that 'religious knowledge' is not a persuasive basis for common decisions outside the community of those who are prepared to assent to that knowledge. Whereas other kinds of knowledge - including the kinds we call 'scientific' knowledge, are. That is an important distinction, and it is reasonable to insist on it being made.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

That would make sense since nobody else wants to listen to your idiotic ramblings

Like who? I'm having perfectly cordial discussions with those who aren't idiots.
You've never addressed an argument I've made in a cogent way. In fact, you don't even recognize them.

Oh really? Well let me take you by the hand as we walk down memory lane.

In your first post all you did was blather about how I was insulting science by saying religion provides knowledge. Then you said I was only expressing a "biased" opinion. I immediately refuted that assertion by highlighting an atheist who said the same thing beforehand. This proves my statement wasn't based in bias. It was simply an axiom accepted by both educated parties. Since you're not educated, you weren't aware of it.

Verdict: You abandoned the argument while hurling insults over your shoulder.

In your second post you presented the following argument: "belief does not equal knowledge. Try looking up those two words and understanding what they actually mean before posting again and embarrassing yourself." Of course, since you're generally void of original thought, you were only mimicking what anti-shock has said in a previous post. I accepted your challenge and provided the English dictionary which made you look like a fool.

How did you respond? By appealing to a popular vote! When I showed that you really had no valid response to this, you called me a moron and said I needed a therapist. Yea, that's some truly "intellectual" stuff there.

Verdict: You abandoned your argument while hurling insults over your shoulder.

Finally, in an act of desperation, you drop this little straw man on me: "so according to darte, it’s knowledge before evidence." I already explained how this was never anything I actually argued, and you have not dealt with any of my refuting points.

Verdict: You abandoned your argument while hurling insults over your shoulder.

So now you want to pretend your audience is reading a fantasy world where you're producing compelling arguments and I'm the one who has become emotionally unhinged? Where are all of these devastating arguments that have gone unanswered?
In the mean time, you'd do well to go learn English.

I did, which is why I now teach it.
Oh, and some anger management courses might help you out too.

Yea, I'm clearly the one foaming at the mouth here.

Better luck next time small fry.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

For the record chap, I see nothing unreasonable about your request, and I actually agree with a lot of it. However, I think more real life examples would prove interesting if not beneficial. The insinuation seems to be that religion generally engages in all four points, making all religions "dangerous." I've asked for specific examples on the other thread but JAK had fled the scene, unwilling to provide an hypothetical scenario where I would act dangerously, contrary to his non-religious decision making.

for instance, women should have access to effective contraceptive advice if they want it, then my attitude is different. If they want what they may call their 'religious knowledge' to have public effects, then the rest of us are entitled to ask for a public means of checking on the truth-value of their alleged knowledge.

I don't think the controversy about contraceptives is strictly a religious/non-religious debate. Some people believe giving contraceptives to kids is only going to encourage them to have sex. Others say they're going to do it anyway, so at least make sure they're safe. On the whole, religious perspectives teach children to abstain from premarital sex, so on that basis I think it is not dangerous. In fact, it can easily be argued that it is safer.
"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great/ If a sperm is wasted. God gets quite irate" and on that basis opposes the provision of contraceptive advice, then such a claim is by its nature incapable of being publicy verified by those lacking the religious commitments of the person who made it.

I agree completely, but I think theists who are activists for this are not offering such lame reasoning. Their logic is far more dimensional than simply: "The Bible says so."
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

dartagnan wrote:
That would make sense since nobody else wants to listen to your idiotic ramblings

Like who? I'm having perfectly cordial discussions with those who aren't idiots.
You've never addressed an argument I've made in a cogent way. In fact, you don't even recognize them.

Oh really? Well let me take you by the hand as we walk down memory lane.

In your first post all you did was blather about how I was insulting science by saying religion provides knowledge. Then you said I was only expressing a "biased" opinion. I immediately refuted that assertion by highlighting an atheist who said the same thing beforehand. This proves my statement wasn't based in bias. It was simply an axiom accepted by both educated parties. Since you're not educated, you weren't aware of it.

Verdict: You abandoned the argument while hurling insults over your shoulder.

In your second post you presented the following argument: "belief does not equal knowledge. Try looking up those two words and understanding what they actually mean before posting again and embarrassing yourself." Of course, since you're generally void of original thought, you were only mimicking what anti-shock has said in a previous post. I accepted your challenge and provided the English dictionary which made you look like a fool.

How did you respond? By appealing to a popular vote! When I showed that you really had no valid response to this, you called me a moron and said I needed a therapist. Yea, that's some truly "intellectual" stuff there.

Verdict: You abandoned your argument while hurling insults over your shoulder.

Finally, in an act of desperation, you drop this little straw man on me: "so according to darte, it’s knowledge before evidence." I already explained how this was never anything I actually argued, and you have not dealt with any of my refuting points.

Verdict: You abandoned your argument while hurling insults over your shoulder.

So now you want to pretend your audience is reading a fantasy world where you're producing compelling arguments and I'm the one who has become emotionally unhinged? Where are all of these devastating arguments that have gone unanswered?
In the mean time, you'd do well to go learn English.

I did, which is why I now teach it.
Oh, and some anger management courses might help you out too.

Yea, I'm clearly the one foaming at the mouth here.

Better luck next time small fry.


LOL... good stuff. Good to see you haven't pulled your head from your ass. How's the smell up there?

by the way, were you on the writing team for the Mormon's version of Mormon history? Your ability to misinterpret the events is pretty impressive here.

You think because one atheist happens to agree with your ridiculous assertion that it adds validity to your cheesy argument? You think it shows you're free of bias? Wow... just when I thought you couldn't appear any dumber...

I never abandoned the argument. It was so shallow, all I needed to say was what I said and left it at that. For this one atheist that agrees with you, there are likely 100 that don't. So what? (You can't possibly be this stupid, can you?)

I don't even remember the quote of antishock's you're referring to, but whatever. You want to accuse me of not thinking for myself? ROTFLMAO... this coming from the guy who argued in favor of Mormonism for who knows how long? This coming from the guy who wants to appeal to the authority of an atheist if she happens to agree with whatever moronic notion you might have, despite the numerous atheists who would laugh you out of the room. Yeah, I'm the one devoid of original thought... while you, on the other hand, don't appear to think at all. And you posting the definition of knowledge didn't help your case, I hate to break it to you. But, again, I'd have to explain to you the meaning of all the words in the definition for you to understand, and I'm just not interested in teaching you English. I have to say that one of the scariest prospects I've ever encountered is that idea that you're a teacher. Where are you teaching English? Zimbabwe? That's about the only place I can imagine a school being desperate enough to hire someone of your weak intellectual standing.

If it seems like I'm "abandoning" one of your arguments, you can chalk it up to one of three reasons:

1) It's too stupid to be worth acknowledging.
2) It would take too long to explain to the the rudimentary knowledge you'd need to understand the higher concepts presented.
3) I didn't abandon it. You just didn't understand what was said. I imagine this is the most common case.

It's gotten to the point now where I read your posts and all I really hear is "Wah, wah, someone change my diaper, wah!"

Oh, and if you think you're "having perfectly cordial discussions with those who aren't idiots" it's because they are making it happen, not you. They clearly have more patience dealing with little kids than I do.

I don't need any luck. Clearly you do.

hehehe
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Your ability to misinterpret the events is pretty impressive here.

Then show where I have misrepresented the events as they happened.

Oh wait, that would require some familiarity with what has actually happened. Unfortunately for you, the audience you're hoping to impress can easily view what has been documented on this relatively short exchange. Just because you get lost after a few sentences, doesn't mean everyone else does too.
You think because one atheist happens to agree with your ridiculous assertion that it adds validity to your cheesy argument?

No, that was never my argument. And this is precisely what I am talking about. You're an idiot. Even after I have explained my reason for using her, you still don't get it. I provided her simply to prove my assertion wasn't based in bias.
You think it shows you're free of bias?

No. It shows that my statement was not formed from bias. It was based in fact that both parties have long since acknowledged. Your unfamiliarity with the debate makes you susceptible to temptations to speak in ignorance. Whose fault is that?

I never abandoned the argument. It was so shallow, all I needed to say was what I said and left it at that.

Lame excuse. You abaondoned it because you had no argument worth defending. When it gets to the point that you have to accuse the dictionary of lying, you've pretty much hit rock bottom. I know it, you know it, and everyone watching knows it.
For this one atheist that agrees with you, there are likely 100 that don't.

Likely uneducated too. So far the only educated atheists on this thread haven't disagreed with my statement. You're the only one howling at the moon here.
I don't even remember the quote of antishock's you're referring to, but whatever.

Sure you don't. That's why his citation exists in your post? Because you never saw it.

antishock8 said: "They didn't know it. They believed it. That's a big difference"

Nine minutes later you posted: "belief does not equal knowledge."

And when I responded to antishock8's comment with dictionary meanings, you responded to me as if I was talking to you and appealed to a popular vote.

You want to accuse me of not thinking for myself? ROTFLMAO... this coming from the guy who argued in favor of Mormonism for who knows how long?

Which only goes to prove I am able to reason my way out of bad positions.
This coming from the guy who wants to appeal to the authority of an atheist

I never appealed to any "authority" of any atheist. You simply don't know how to comprehend.
And you posting the definition of knowledge didn't help your case, I hate to break it to you. But, again, I'd have to explain to you the meaning of all the words in the definition for you to understand, and I'm just not interested in teaching you English.

Right.

Your meltdown is noted.
I have to say that one of the scariest prospects I've ever encountered is that idea that you're a teacher. Where are you teaching English? Zimbabwe? That's about the only place I can imagine a school being desperate enough to hire someone of your weak intellectual standing.

Actually, I teach for the most prestigious University on the South American continent. But one doesn't need to teach English to know the meaning of simple terms like knowledge and belief. All one needs is a set of eyeballs and a few brain cells rubbing together. I'm sorry you don't qualify.
If it seems like I'm "abandoning" one of your arguments

You did abandon your arguments. There is no "seems" about it. Abandoning them with the only smart thing you've done. But that subtle stroke of intelligence has been overshadowed by the rest of your moronic rhetoric.
Oh, and if you think you're "having perfectly cordial discussions with those who aren't idiots" it's because they are making it happen, not you.

It takes two to tango. The same is true with cordial discussion. Do yourself a favor and stop trying to make excuses as to why you can't have an intelligent discussion like everyone else.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

dartagnan wrote:wah, wah, someone change my diaper, wah


Will someone take care of that kid before he pops a blood vessel?!
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_silentkid
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Post by _silentkid »

dartagnan wrote:Silent,
Can science be used to understand religion as a natural phenomenon? I believe so

Not using the scientific method, which is limited since it deals with the present.
with advances in the fields of neurology, genetics, and molecular biology

All of which, prove what exactly?
There is no definitive scientific answer at this point (maybe there will never be) but at least there are scientists who are willing to pursue it.

Of course they are. But let's be real about what they have established or can establish with science.


Dart. I understand your point that the scientific method cannot be used to address specific religious claims. I'm not retarded. The scientific method is grounded in testability and repeatibility. Many religious claims (i.e. the existance of god, that the body has a soul) cannot be tested. The approach you take, that science and religion are two separate ways of knowing, is essentially correct. Gould describes this approach as NOMA (religion and science represent non-overlapping magisteria). I'm up to date on what can and cannot be explained by the scientific method (which I use everyday in my research). My post was not an argument to your position. In fact, it wasn't an argument at all, yet you treat it as such, with your point by point critique. Have you read the works of either of the authors I mentioned? They can explain much better what I tried to state in a few sentences. If religion is a natural phenomenon, if it is a selected trait that's beneficial for survival, why shouldn't scientists use the scientific method to study it? You seem pretty confident that science does not have many answers in this area. Neurotheology is in its infancy. Give it some time...you might learn something.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

silentkid wrote: Give it some time...you might learn something.


He would have to simmer down first. Oh, and learn to read. Hell, it may even help if he actually engaged his brain in the act of "thinking," something he's resistant to do. Maybe it's just hard for him to think with his pants full of crap, or maybe it's just the fact that he's full of crap. Take your pick.

I'm interested to see how he diligently misinterprets your post, and jumps all over you for having the audacity to challenge him on whatever primitive notion he's currently sporting.

hehe
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

The real worst thing about Mormonism is that it produces ex-Mormons.

*Dun, dun, duuunnnnn...*

<--- Strives to be a "true believe" and piss off Trashcanman.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

Doctor Steuss wrote:The real worst thing about Mormonism is that it produces ex-Mormons.

Kind of a....
'Nuclear power plants are great - except for all that pesky nuclear waste'
...kinda thayng?
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