Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

[_charity]

Hey Harmony,

their leader was killed
they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter
they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

Yeah, that sounds like they were really blessed.

Once they got rid of the Abomination, the blessings returned, they flourished, they prospered.

God will not be mocked.

I've been pondering this Harmony... I truly had not ever really thought of this, after all these years, this is a new idea to contemplate.

It would be MUCH easier to believe in the LDS church if one looked upon it from this perspective. It does seem to be very true that once the polygamy nonsense was removed, the church was blessed.

I do not believe in the LDS church however, I do believe that the result of goodness, is well, goodness. And the consequences of unhealthy behavior is unhealthiness.

:-)

~dancer~

Your history is all wrong here. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. The Church moved away from the source of persecution, and outside the rule of the United States, which failed miserably in extending the protections of the Constituition to the Saints. For 40 years, when left alone, the Church prospered. greatly. They spread throughout the intermountain west, with numerous prosperous settlements.

The Church , in the 40 years from 1850 to 1890 more than tripled in membership. The growth rates was 369%. In the 40 years following the Manifesto, when according to you the Church should have "blossomed" freed from the horrible abomination of polygamy, the growth rate was slightly lower than that, at 355%.

Sorry ladies. Your theory that polygamy was a terrible burden on the Church just won't wash.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Population_and_growth_rate

[_Yoda]

Charity--

Do you see plural marriage being reinstated, and, do you think that things would be better if it was?

[_truth dancer]

Just an FYI...

The LDS Doctrine and Covenants retained the original "Statement on Marriage" until 1876 edition -- even though the church was concurrently teaching and practicing polygamy and "celestial marriage" as essential! Subsequently, this "Statement on Marriage" was removed from the LDC. Section 103 in the original 1835 D&C was also removed from the LDS D&C, perhaps because it authorized the acceptance of the "Statement on Marriage" by the original church.

http://www.centerplace.org/library/stud ... c-marr.htm

This article gives a brief overview of the change.

From the article:

In 1835, the church adopted a Statement on Marriage, in order to contradict the false accusations that the church taught and practiced polygamy. It reads (in part) as follows:

Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is as liberty to marry again.


This document was accepted in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (KDC) as Section 101, and now appears in the RLDS D&C (RDC) as Section 111. Section 103 in the 1835 edition (RDC Section 108A) states that this article on marriage was "accepted and adopted, and ordered to be printed in [the Doctrine and Covenants] by a unanimous vote".
There could be no plainer statement on marriage than this. Polygamy, fornication, and (by implication) other forms of concubinage are declared to be "crimes" and are not a part of the church's belief. It implies that the bonds of marriage cease when one or the other party dies, allowing the living party to remarry (see Romans 7:1-4). The Statement on Marriage also declares that marriage should be conducted in a "public meeting, or feast", rather than in secret ceremonies hid from the eyes of the world.

~dancer~

[_charity]

Charity--

Do you see plural marriage being reinstated, and, do you think that things would be better if it was?

I don't think it will. But that is just my fallible opinion. I don't know what the difference is in terms of men who will be worthy of exaltation and women who will be. In my ward, and every ward I have been in, faithful LDS women outnumber faithful LDS men. So, in terms of every woman who is worthy for exaltation being sealed to a worthy man, some men are going to have to have more than one wife. But that could easily be taken care of in the next phase of existence.

Financially, there isn't a need now. Single women can support themselves. This was more difficult in the 1880's.

If it were revealed that the Church would be asked to live the law of plural marriage, of course it would be better. The Lord only gives commandments for the benefit of His children, even when we don't understand why.

[_the road to hana]

The Lord only gives commandments for the benefit of His children, even when we don't understand why.

Are you completely able to rule out the possibility that the "command" didn't come from God, but was instituted by (a) man?

[_charity]

The Lord only gives commandments for the benefit of His children, even when we don't understand why.

Are you completely able to rule out the possibility that the "command" didn't come from God, but was instituted by (a) man?

If you are talking theoretically, that there is always a possiblity that some extremely implausible, improbable thing could happen. Alien space ships kidnapping people. Flying spahetti monsters.

But if we are talking the real world, in the instance of plural marriage in the Church, yes, I completely rule out the possiblity that this was not of God. On logical grounds, on grounds of history, on grounds of trusting in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, of which I have a witness from the Holy Ghost.

[_ludwigm]

The Lord only gives commandments for the benefit of His children, even when we don't understand why.

Are you completely able to rule out the possibility that the "command" didn't come from God, but was instituted by (a) man?

If you are talking theoretically, that there is always a possiblity that some extremely implausible, improbable thing could happen. Alien space ships kidnapping people. Flying spahetti monsters.

But if we are talking the real world, in the instance of plural marriage in the Church, yes, I completely rule out the possiblity that this was not of God. On logical grounds, on grounds of history, on grounds of trusting in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, of which I have a witness from the Holy Ghost.

Is the HG part of the real word?

My question is pure technical. Parts of the real word are detectable, measurable, provable by scientific devices. Many time - atomic particles - it is a hard work and looks like wizardry for us, poor common people, but possible anyway.

Is it possible to detect the HG?

[_the road to hana]

On logical grounds,

What logical grounds?

on grounds of history,

Can jihad be defended on the same basis?

on grounds of trusting in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, of which I have a witness from the Holy Ghost.

There are members of the FLDS Church who claimed the same regarding Warren Jeffs, and his predecessors, including Joseph Smith.

[_charity]

My question is pure technical. Parts of the real word are detectable, measurable, provable by scientific devices. Many time - atomic particles - it is a hard work and looks like wizardry for us, poor common people, but possible anyway.

Is it possible to detect the HG?

Yes, it is possible to detect the Holy Ghost. There are millions of witnesses to it.

And if you want to ask for the verification of some scientific measuring device, there are accepted phenomena which science cannot at present measure. For instance, whatever it is that alerts animals to an impending earthquake. Scientisits recognize it happens, but they don't know the mechanism, and so can't measure it.

[_harmony]

Hey Harmony,

their leader was killed
they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter
they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

Yeah, that sounds like they were really blessed.

Once they got rid of the Abomination, the blessings returned, they flourished, they prospered.

God will not be mocked.

I've been pondering this Harmony... I truly had not ever really thought of this, after all these years, this is a new idea to contemplate.

It would be MUCH easier to believe in the LDS church if one looked upon it from this perspective. It does seem to be very true that once the polygamy nonsense was removed, the church was blessed.

I do not believe in the LDS church however, I do believe that the result of goodness, is well, goodness. And the consequences of unhealthy behavior is unhealthiness.

:-)

~dancer~

Your history is all wrong here. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844.

That would be the first statement, charity. The one that reads "their leader was killed".

The Church moved away from the source of persecution, and outside the rule of the United States, which failed miserably in extending the protections of the Constituition to the Saints.

The members were thrown out of their homes and into a nasty winter, which is what is covered in the second statement, "they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter". Why? Because William Law was right; Joseph and the other leaders had multiple wives and the surrounding communities would NOT allow that to live in their midst. The general rank and file, who had been repeatedly lied to from the pulpit and told that Joseph only had Emma to wife and the other leaders only had one wife also, were ALSO thrown out into the winter weather. It wasn't just the leaders who were tossed out; it was virtually everyone. Only a few stayed behind.

For 40 years, when left alone, the Church prospered. greatly.

You left out a few things. Let me help you:

they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

They spread throughout the intermountain west, with numerous prosperous settlements.

Numerous? Prosperous? Well, maybe everything owned by Brigham prospered, but that isn't an accurate statement for the rank and file.

The Church , in the 40 years from 1850 to 1890 more than tripled in membership. The growth rates was 369%.

What's that got to do with deprivation, starvation, or the Abomination?

In the 40 years following the Manifesto, when according to you the Church should have "blossomed" freed from the horrible abomination of polygamy, the growth rate was slightly lower than that, at 355%.

Actually, I was thinking more in term of today, but the same still applies. After the Abomination was removed, the Saints started to prosper, to today when the LDS church is one of the richest per capita on the planet.

Sorry ladies. Your theory that polygamy was a terrible burden on the Church just won't wash.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Population_and_growth_rate

*sigh* charity, surely you understand that the deprivation, starvation, and death that was a direct result of being thrown out of Nauvoo in the middle of the winter, the appalling conditions at Winter Quarters, the horrendous experience of the trek west has nothing to do with population and growth rates in 1890. Don't you? Polygamy was one of the main reasons the Saints were forced out of Nauvoo; the rank and file members had nothing to do with that, but they were forced out along with the ones who were deeply involved and lying about it. Try as you may, there is no way around that. Calling that period of time a "blessing" is despicable.

God will not be mocked. Joseph made up Sec 132 and God will not be mocked. He withdrew his protecting hand and the Saints were attacked, bloodied, and thrown out into the winter, their homes destroyed, their children dying on the trail. And for what... a lie.