who needs to know?

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:11 pm

I think the first reply to the thread was perfect! If I had seen it before I replied I might not have at all.

Tarski wrote:
Can't she avoid Mormon men?

oh and yes it is deeply ingrained--these guys have little or no sexual experience and they have lots of insecurities and prejudices

Nuff said!

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:13 pm

Moniker wrote:
Sam Harris wrote:If guys don't like painful baggage, then they shouldn't create it.

Edited to add: I know that not ALL guys would refuse to date a woman who has been abused, but not all women are abused by women!

AMEN!

I've seen a few men on this thread think they couldn't handle being with a woman abused (of course what is that? There's a wide spectrum) and I wonder if they're aware of the stats that MANY, MANY, MANY women have dealt with some sort of sexual abuse (from molestation to rape). Last stats I saw said 1 out of 4 females were abused and 1 out of 5 males were before the age of 18. Sort of narrows down the odds of people you can "deal with". Interesting that they just can't tell sometimes who that woman or man is...

Isn't that interesting??

We all have baggage. I've learned things about Steve that make me want to cry, the things he's seen and dealt with. And it's hard to have to pull these things out of him, because he's a man, and society has ingrained into many a male mind that you're supposed to deal with certain situations in a certain way.

He asks me occasionally why I love him. I say, "because you're worthy". As far as I'm concerned, that's 'nuff said. That's the way it should be for us all, no matter what happened in our past.

Why should a person be blamed for who hit them, molested them, looked at them and deemed them less than worthy? I spent more than 2 decades in that prison. I won't take it anymore. If you want to define me by my past, prepare to get your a** whupped, because it will be. I'm a queen, and if you don't realize that, there's something wrong with YOU.

As far as the men who can't deal with an abused woman, I wonder how clean their noses are. I suppose they have never lied to a woman, never teased a girl, never judged one and found her "ugly" (God don't make ugly, people do), never stood one up on a date....list goes on...if they can't deal with a woman's issues, it must be because they're so innocent, having never had the chance to foster one in the garden of a woman's heart.

Lucky are the men who have never met me. :-)

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:14 pm

harmony wrote:
The Nehor wrote:I'm going to perhaps be a sleazeball here.

After dating two victims of abuse and/or rape, I plan to avoid relationships like that in the future. Part of it was lingering issues they had that made them unable to really open up and the odd habits they had picked up. Another part of it is that I couldn't cope with it. I wanted to fix it, to make it better, to help her. I couldn't do anything. It drove me nuts. Maybe that is a flaw in me. That's great but I don't know how to repair it and I don't plan to stake my future or anyone else's on the hope that one day down the road I will get over it.

It has nothing to do with seeing victims as damaged goods. I've just learned a little something about my limits. I should also note that I have two agnostic friends who won't date anyone who has been abused either. I don't think it has to do with the LDS Church. It's guys in general. In case you haven't picked up on this, we don't like lots of painful baggage in the past. I blame the Y chromosome.

It's not fair to your daughter. It's not fair to you either. That doesn't change reality though. No one picks a romantic partner because the other person deserves someone (if they do I think they're mad). You do it because you like and love each other and you think you can make a happy life together.

"The world is a bunch of people running around screaming and flailing their arms. The idea is to find someone running in the same direction who is unlikely to smack you in the face too often."

Well, at least you're an honest sleazeball ;-) You make a great case for not telling, Nehor. For keeping secrets. For living a lie.

The guy she's dating now didn't run; he advised her to go to counseling, which is what precipitated her telling us what had happened to her. He told her he'd been to counseling a few years ago, and it helped him a lot. So far, he hasn't written her off as too much trouble. Even if nothing comes of their relationship, I'll always respect him. The man lives his religion.

Harm, he sounds like the few who are TRUE assets to the church. I hope he realizes what he has in your daughter.

Post by **_Dr. Shades** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:16 pm

harmony wrote:Well, at least you're an honest sleazeball ;-) You make a great case for not telling, Nehor. For keeping secrets. For living a lie.

In the Nehor's defense, notice that the two girls he described had issues (relating to previous abuse) which affected their lives on a daily, practical basis. That is what I contend these LDS guys are wary of. Perhaps they jumped the gun; maybe your daughter doesn't carry any baggage and, if she has any issues, they don't affect her on an interpersonal basis.

If the latter is actually the case, then she needn't tell anyone, since it won't affect the life of whatever guy she decides to spend her life with. That is not "living a lie," since it hasn't become his (or anyone else's) business.

If the former is the case, and the former abuse will affect her interpersonal relationships the way they affected Nehor's two former date-ees, then she ought to tell any potential life partner in the interest of full disclosure. Maybe he'll be able to handle them, maybe he'll be able to work through them, maybe he won't. In either case, that's his call.

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:20 pm

Perhaps these LDS guys, these members of the "one true", these high priests, these kings in their homes need to grow up. If you can't handle loving someone in a christlike and unconditional way who has been scarred, then you don't need to be having your own family, because it could be your daughter one day. What you gonna do, turn away from her?

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:20 pm

harmony wrote:
The Nehor wrote:I'm going to perhaps be a sleazeball here.

After dating two victims of abuse and/or rape, I plan to avoid relationships like that in the future. Part of it was lingering issues they had that made them unable to really open up and the odd habits they had picked up. Another part of it is that I couldn't cope with it. I wanted to fix it, to make it better, to help her. I couldn't do anything. It drove me nuts. Maybe that is a flaw in me. That's great but I don't know how to repair it and I don't plan to stake my future or anyone else's on the hope that one day down the road I will get over it.

It has nothing to do with seeing victims as damaged goods. I've just learned a little something about my limits. I should also note that I have two agnostic friends who won't date anyone who has been abused either. I don't think it has to do with the LDS Church. It's guys in general. In case you haven't picked up on this, we don't like lots of painful baggage in the past. I blame the Y chromosome.

It's not fair to your daughter. It's not fair to you either. That doesn't change reality though. No one picks a romantic partner because the other person deserves someone (if they do I think they're mad). You do it because you like and love each other and you think you can make a happy life together.

"The world is a bunch of people running around screaming and flailing their arms. The idea is to find someone running in the same direction who is unlikely to smack you in the face too often."

Well, at least you're an honest sleazeball ;-) You make a great case for not telling, Nehor. For keeping secrets. For living a lie.

The guy she's dating now didn't run; he advised her to go to counseling, which is what precipitated her telling us what had happened to her. He told her he'd been to counseling a few years ago, and it helped him a lot. So far, he hasn't written her off as too much trouble. Even if nothing comes of their relationship, I'll always respect him. The man lives his religion.

You make a few assumptions. That your daughter would actually want a guy like me in the first place for one. I wasn't making a case for keeping secrets. I was making a case for finding someone with the ability to deal successfully with your past and who and what you are (and vice-versa).

I'm happy she found that guy. He sounds good for her.

I don't see how living your religion has anything at all to do with your choice of who to pursue a relationship with. If I were to do that I would be pursuing a girl I love (though not romantically) because logically she is the best choice in terms of mental, emotional, and spiritual compatibility. No romantic attraction whatsoever though.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:53 pm

Sam Harris wrote:Still trying to find the connection between cheaters and victims, but I'll make it before the end of the day.

Nehor...my stepdad almost raped me. We're friends. It can be done. It's called maturity and forgiveness...no superhuman strength, just a desire to move on, the knowledge that it could have been you on the other side of the sitution, and the desire to be happy. That's it!

There wasn't a connection. I was picking the thing that would make most guys run and hide to show an extreme of the situation. I was contrasting things that every guy would be unable to cope with with other things that some guys can't cope with. This happens to be one of mine.

There is forgiveness and it's a beautiful thing. I just don't want to start a relationship with an albatross around my neck hampering my progress whether it's my fault or hers.

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:56 pm

For the sake of Harmony's thread, I split these posts into telestial. If you want to continue this part of the discussion there, that's cool.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:56 pm

Moniker wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Some girls hide things very well. The lyrics 'She was sexing everyone but me.' come to mind. She explained it when I found out and asked for forgiveness and wanted things to continue the way they were. It was a long time before I could forgive her. I still would have broken up even if I could have forgiven her then and there.

She was having sex with everyone but YOU? I think I'd keep that to myself..... :P

I would have but the mention needed an explanation. Everyone is probably not correct. I think there were only two.

Post by **_BishopRic** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:23 pm

The Nehor wrote:I'm going to perhaps be a sleazeball here.

After dating two victims of abuse and/or rape, I plan to avoid relationships like that in the future. Part of it was lingering issues they had that made them unable to really open up and the odd habits they had picked up. Another part of it is that I couldn't cope with it. I wanted to fix it, to make it better, to help her. I couldn't do anything. It drove me nuts. Maybe that is a flaw in me. That's great but I don't know how to repair it and I don't plan to stake my future or anyone else's on the hope that one day down the road I will get over it.

It has nothing to do with seeing victims as damaged goods. I've just learned a little something about my limits. I should also note that I have two agnostic friends who won't date anyone who has been abused either. I don't think it has to do with the LDS Church. It's guys in general. In case you haven't picked up on this, we don't like lots of painful baggage in the past. I blame the Y chromosome.

It's not fair to your daughter. It's not fair to you either. That doesn't change reality though. No one picks a romantic partner because the other person deserves someone (if they do I think they're mad). You do it because you like and love each other and you think you can make a happy life together.

"The world is a bunch of people running around screaming and flailing their arms. The idea is to find someone running in the same direction who is unlikely to smack you in the face too often."

I actually appreciate Nehor's response. I think it highlights a few things -- and I don't think it is totally unique to Mormonism, but I think it is a bit more common there. That is an avoidance to getting help when it is needed. It goes back to the drive to be perfect...and when that isn't happening, it isn't pleasant to admit it to anyone. Then, for whatever reason (maybe for the reasons mentioned above about previous leaders saying the victims somehow encouraged the abuse, dunno), it isn't dealt with, and it DOES affect the way a person goes into new relationships.

Then, I still think there is a significant challenge with sexuality in Mormonism (and other dogmatic religions too); it is a taboo subject, which mystifies it, and creates a culture for bizarre secrecy and guilt. I contend that guilt is NOT good, and it creates lower self-worth and depression, which leads to many problems of addiction and other poor choices.

The other point that Nehor makes is the desire to fix the problems. Yes, I've read Mars and Venus...and think there is a tendency for men to fix their partners, but I think it is one of those areas that we (men) need to get over. In the addiction field we call it codependency, and it leads to poor relationships. When one is needing to fix their partner, intimacy cannot exist. I actually think it is quite simple -- if a potential partner has some traits that you can't live with, learn to accept them or move on. If this happens often, consider the possibility that your expectations are what is out of whack.