What is the source of conservativism in Christianity?

[_Gazelam]

Uh, no. Was it the content or the style?

LOL, I found the hairsplitting brought about a sence of deja vu.

No offence intended, : )

[_Moniker]

Uh, no. Was it the content or the style?

LOL, I found the hairsplitting brought about a sence of deja vu.

No offence intended, : )

Ha! Should I have been offended? I wasn't. Maybe I should be? Dunno. :)

[_beastie]

Are you talking about conservatism as in attempting to resist change?

There are Christian movements that sought to unsettle the status quo. That there were splits even in early American history (slavery in the UK too -- Quakers) shows how when we talk about the Christian religion it just appears that those that have certain political ideologies seem to grasp to whatever they want to from the Bible to fortify their position. There are Christians that support stem cell research -- their reasoning is that it would save lives and that many embryos would be discarded anyway. I'm almost 100% positive the Episcopal and Methodist Churches both support stem cell research -- from those embryos that would be discarded. There are Churches that are pro-choice, as well.

Yes, I was linking political conservatism to the attempt to resist change, or "conserve" whatever the current status quo may be.

It is true that many Christian sects tend to be more liberal, like the episcopalians. But, in general, it does seem that - at least in the US where Christianity is indisputably a mainstream source of power - Christianity tends to be more conservative.

Many of these issues can be linked to patriarchy, as well, and sexual control. It makes sense to me that, taking Mormonism as a specific example, it would tend to seek to conserve the social structure that allowed it to become a real power broker, which would be the mainstream social structure of america during the fifties. Prior to that period Mormonism was powerful in certain states out west, but not generally in the rest of the US. If I recall correctly, a concerted effort was made by the brethren to create political power links, and they have succeeded in doing so.

I'm just thinking out loud, I could be totally off base. Certainly, in regards to Mormonism in specific, the influence of patriarchy, a cherished part of Mormonism, can explain a lot of their conservative ideas.

[_Moniker]

Are you talking about conservatism as in attempting to resist change?

There are Christian movements that sought to unsettle the status quo. That there were splits even in early American history (slavery in the UK too -- Quakers) shows how when we talk about the Christian religion it just appears that those that have certain political ideologies seem to grasp to whatever they want to from the Bible to fortify their position. There are Christians that support stem cell research -- their reasoning is that it would save lives and that many embryos would be discarded anyway. I'm almost 100% positive the Episcopal and Methodist Churches both support stem cell research -- from those embryos that would be discarded. There are Churches that are pro-choice, as well.

Yes, I was linking political conservatism to the attempt to resist change, or "conserve" whatever the current status quo may be.

It is true that many Christian sects tend to be more liberal, like the episcopalians. But, in general, it does seem that - at least in the US where Christianity is indisputably a mainstream source of power - Christianity tends to be more conservative.

My initial thoughts on this are that they are more conservative... yet, I mean when I look at the actual stats and see that the 3rd largest Protestant Church in America is pro-choice as well as supportive of stem cell research it sort of throws out my initial assumptions on it. The 3rd largest Protestant Church in America is also highly critical of the Iraq War, chides Bush for unilateralism, is concerned with environmental issues, as well -- that just is not conservatism. I think we forget sometimes these soft spoken Churches that do their work quietly and aren't in the press too often.

I found this: http://www.streetprophets.com/storyonly ... 235922/263

The Epsicopal Church, United Methodist Church, United Church of Christ, Presbyterian Church (USA), and the American Baptist Church join with over 40 national church bodies in supporting the work of RCRC.

The Reverend Dr. Katherine Hancock Ragsdale has said this about Christianity and the issue of abortion:

We're pro-choice because we know that the Bible and any faith worthy of the name do not give simple and easy answers to complex and difficult questions. They don't promise to spare us from making tough decisions. They just promise that we won't have to face those choices alone.

We're pro-choice because we know that our faith cannot answer the question of when a fetus becomes a person. We also know that the whole question of fetal personhood is a disingenuous, and often malicious, attempt to distract us from the real issue--which is that the woman is a person. She is a person endowed by God, the U.S. Constitution, and common sense and decency with rights and responsibilities that she must exercise to the best of her ability, using her own best judgment.

And while our various religious traditions may teach various things about when, if, and how we should sacrifice ourselves for others, no one--not partner, priest, or politician--no one gets to decide what is, or is not, an appropriate sacrifice for someone else to make.

The religious right has hijacked Christianity and manipulated millions to believe that being anti-choice is the only choice for Christians.

But if you're a pro-choice Christian who feels alone and isolated please know that many churches support you and that there is a group - the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice - that is working for you and that needs your help in turn. Make sure you visit their web site.

The part I bolded is what I see is happening in a lot of these conversations. We think of LDS or the religious right and then follow policy with those religions. I did this with JAK just the last few weeks where he was glomming all Christians together. That the religious right is only a fraction of Christians (and they're the ones that are the outspoken ones) and get the press it seems that many people don't separate them from the other mainstream Churches.

Many of these issues can be linked to patriarchy, as well, and sexual control. It makes sense to me that, taking Mormonism as a specific example, it would tend to seek to conserve the social structure that allowed it to become a real power broker, which would be the mainstream social structure of america during the fifties. Prior to that period Mormonism was powerful in certain states out west, but not generally in the rest of the US. If I recall correctly, a concerted effort was made by the brethren to create political power links, and they have succeeded in doing so.

Absolutely! You can see the same thing with the religious right. They take their policies and their interpretations of scripture (which by no coincidence, I would think) that align with the political ideology predominantly seen in the South.

I'm just thinking out loud, I could be totally off base. Certainly, in regards to Mormonism in specific, the influence of patriarchy, a cherished part of Mormonism, can explain a lot of their conservative ideas.

Yes! I absolutely agree!

I just think I keep piping up here 'cause the OP mentions "unity" and there seems to be a disregard for the fact that there is NO "unity" when it comes to Christians being pro-life and against stem cell research. I hope that explains better why I kept piping up... should have just said that to begin with! :)

[_Sam Harris]

Ah! Ha! The Supply Side Jesus is awesome! William Bennett Iscariot! :)

Asbestosman, I would think that since there are splits in political ideology between denominations that people just gravitate to those denominations that suit their political ideologies. The South is a bastion for conservatism so it's no wonder that the SBC (radically conservative) is full of congregates here. The Church of Christ is very conservative here, as well. The man is the head of the home just like God is the head of the Church -- the women sit in the back of the Church, women shouldn't work outside the home, etc... Their preachers merely cherry pick what suits them to align with their political philosophy of conservatism. I don't see it as an easy fit, yet, apparently it works out for some.

So, it's NOT God/Jesus leading them. Their political ideologies lead them to cherry pick what they want to take out of the scriptures. I appreciate the denominations that look more towards tolerance, charity, and social justice -- but that's 'cause THAT is what appeals to me. Of course I don't believe in any of the mythology. So, for someone that looks for a Church home they need to find a fit that makes them settle in and they can say, "Hell yah!" and nod in agreement as their preacher/cleric/whatever merely reiterates what they're comfortable with and draws parallels to scripture. It makes them assured that they can then tell you that they're a good person (even if they're a slum lord) 'cause they have Christ in their lives.

Gag!

I too see Jesus as a radical hippie (yet, try not to say that during Easter supper!:) and don't quite grasp how those that claim to be his disciples use his name when espousing social Darwinism, intolerance, and bigotry.

With reference to the bolded type, this is exactly what is happening. People who believe that they have an ulitmate truth, when faced with something they do not understand, will find within that "ultimate truth" that which validates their prejudice. It's near impossible to get a fundie to tell you why they don't follow the Old Testament letter for letter, when they focus on things like abortion and homosexuality. They will tell you that "Christ did away with the Law"...yet still hold onto parts of it...and not be able for the life of them be able to explain the logic. And don't ask them to quote Christ on abortion and homosexuality, you get words from Paul and everyone else...

I think it frightens some Christians to think that Jesus was really a tolerant person...because that means that by them wearing the mantle of a "follower", they have to be as well.

[_The Nehor]

With reference to the bolded type, this is exactly what is happening. People who believe that they have an ulitmate truth, when faced with something they do not understand, will find within that "ultimate truth" that which validates their prejudice. It's near impossible to get a fundie to tell you why they don't follow the Old Testament letter for letter, when they focus on things like abortion and homosexuality. They will tell you that "Christ did away with the Law"...yet still hold onto parts of it...and not be able for the life of them be able to explain the logic. And don't ask them to quote Christ on abortion and homosexuality, you get words from Paul and everyone else...

I think it frightens some Christians to think that Jesus was really a tolerant person...because that means that by them wearing the mantle of a "follower", they have to be as well.

I think Jesus was tolerant towards people but towards sin he was almost ludicrously severe. While chopping off your hands and plucking out your eyes are metaphors, the metaphors are meant to convey a severity that is fully intended. He offended a lot of people and it wasn't because he was just saying that people should be nice to each other.

I like what C.S. Lewis said when he tried to describe a Christian society. He said there are parts we would look at and like and some we would look at and not like and which is which would vary based on the person. He condemned the way God was used as an advocate for political ideas, an argument for them. He stated that until we approach God as a teacher and not as a fellow party member he most likely won't help us much in this field.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I think it has alot to do with being OLD and archaic, and the thing that come from age: tradition. Plus I think it has to do with trying to promolgate archaic social positions which many people want to move beyond. Also it probably has to do with religious power (an abstract thing that doesn't really exert any control) becoming social and political power (areas where control can be exerted).

[_Sam Harris]

I think it has alot to do with being OLD and archaic, and the thing that come from age: tradition. Plus I think it has to do with trying to promolgate archaic social positions which many people want to move beyond. Also it probably has to do with religious power (an abstract thing that doesn't really exert any control) becoming social and political power (areas where control can be exerted).

Agreed.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Mod Note: The abortion stuff was split off to a thread found here:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=5642

Everyone happy?~Bond :P

[_Sam Harris]

Mod Note: The abortion stuff was split off to a thread found here:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=5642

Everyone happy?~Bond :P

No. We're never happy. Now dance some more.