Ahhh crap...now my son doesn't want to go to Church!

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Cinepro, tell me this. Would you want your son growing up believing the way Gazelam does? You know, Flood of Noah, Fall of Adam, no evolution, and all? I rather doubt you do. Then stop trying to force your boy into the TBM mold, because Gazelams are what comes out of it as often as not. Either that, or you'll end up with a kid that has to literally fool themselves into believing what they really don't want to believe, but feel that they should, and so they find a way. That's no way to live, IMHO. And I doubt you'd really want that for your son.

He would need to smack his son in the back of the head first:

Its your duty as a father to cuff him in the back of the head and tell him to do as he's told.

duh

[_Sethbag]

You gotta remember, Gazelam learned in church that obedience was the first law of Heaven.

Bah, that's such utter dog crap it's sickening. And forcing one's kids into the belief system is sickening as well.

My daughter's most of the way through her Freshman year in High School and she didn't take seminary. It actually was two or three months into the school year before my wife noticed and read us the riot act. My daughter doesn't want to do seminary, and so she didn't go out of her way to bring it up. She said she'd do the study at home/online thing, but hasn't really ever gotten around to it.

So the two or three weeks ago we were at my MIL's house (she just got back from a mission in Africa) and I heard my MIL and my wife talking to our daughter about seminary. My MIL was trying to convince her that it was very important to go, and using coercive emotional manipulation techniques to extract a commitment from my daughter to go.

The next day I was helping my MIL with something and brought it up, and she said that my daughter was going to go to seminary because she wanted to. I said no, I heard you guys convincing her that she ought to want to go, and manipulating her into it. I said I happen to know as a fact that my daughter doesn't want to go to seminary, and my MIL said "yeah that's because you've convinced her not to". No, actually, I didn't say anything to her about seminary until after the school year was already started and she wasn't going, and then it was my daughter who brought it up to me, not me.

My wife said she had to put her foot down, as the mother, and make our daughter go to seminary. We live in the morridor, and there's an LDS seminary building by the high school, and I said no way is she going if it means release-time during the school day. No freaking way. What class should my daughter skip in order to do seminary? Spanish? Math? Biology? Orchestra? Seriously, what a colossal waste of time. My daughter's in high school, and she's got more important things to be learning during the day than Mormon mythology.

And I'm putting my foot down about early morning seminary too. I've placed great emphasis on my daughter's scholastic performance, and her music practicing and lessons and whatnot. She's already struggling to keep up with all of her homework and projects and get meaningful practicing in on her instrument, and going to early morning seminary would just make that all the harder. No way.

I asked my MIL the following question: what would my daughter learn in seminary that she couldn't learn as an adult over the course of the rest of her life? She actually tried to argue with me that it was critical that my daughter attend seminary now because she'll never have the time to learn about the church during the rest of her life. Uhuh. I said actually I think the real reason LDS seem to flip out about their youth going to seminary is because they know their minds are still malleable enough that they can be indoctrinated, and thus result in more active members as an adult. My MIL totally denied this, but she couldn't counter it with anything more than just "no, it's not indoctrination, it's just important that they learn the Gospel now to prepare them for the rest of their lives."

I'm fully committed to the idea that my daughter will be utterly and completely free to choose whether she will spend the rest of her life as a Mormon, and what she'll believe, and why. I'm not going to force her in or out of the church, and I'm not going to let my wife force our daughter into the LDS mold, unless she truly wants to be stuck in it. Right now it doesn't look like she does, and so I'm not going to force her in. To do so is just wrong.

[_karl61]

Just get some phones where you can talk to each other real quick - the ones that beep. Your son would be fine but people may turn around in sacrament meeting and give you a dirty look.

[_why me]

You gotta remember, Gazelam learned in church that obedience was the first law of Heaven.

Bah, that's such utter dog crap it's sickening. And forcing one's kids into the belief system is sickening as well.

This is Dawkinism to be sure. The problem is: parents always force their children into a belief system through a socialization process. What five year old can choose his or her belief system? When should a child have a belief system? Who teaches a child right from wrong? From what I have seen in my neck of the woods, those children raised without a constructive belief system usually end up lost and confused.

[_why me]

I'm fully committed to the idea that my daughter will be utterly and completely free to choose whether she will spend the rest of her life as a Mormon, and what she'll believe, and why.

What does this mean? What exactly are you committed to? I am sure that if you believed your daughter was heading in the wrong direction you would put your foot down and begin to influence her behavior or would you just allow her to be free to do what she wants to do?

Also, you are already influencing her belief patterns through your disbelief. I do believe she knows just how you feel about the LDS church. Such much for freedom to choose without parental intent.

[Guest]

You should feel lucky, Cinepro, that you've got a smart boy who isn't afraid to use his noggin for more than just holding up his hat. I hope you have the eventual satisfaction of knowing his mind is unencumbered by the kind of crap keeping people like Gazelam, Will Schryver, Nehor, and BCSpace and others on this board holding onto the false beliefs of Mormonism.

If I remember correctly at 10 years old, I knew nothing from nothing and I certainly wasn't using my noggin beyond baseball cards, baseball, basketball, football and noticing that girls and boys are a bit different.

However, after I made my confirmation in the catholic faith at 11, I stopped going to mass. I didn't use my noggin, just didn't want to be bothered about getting up on a sunday and wearing fancy clothes, something that catholic kids did back then. But my noggin was not in use.

[_beastie]

From what I have seen in my neck of the woods, those children raised without a constructive belief system usually end up lost and confused.

Please define and clarify "lost and confused".

I raised my own children without what YOU would call a "constructive belief system". I was very open with them about my atheism, and we often had discussions about the topic. But I NEVER insisted that they adopt my atheism, and I actually exposed them to churches when they were younger, as well. They went through various phases. My sons have both ended up (currently) being atheists, but for much of their childhoods they adhered to some form of god-belief. My middle son actually, at one point, created his own tentative "theology". This didn't mean they were "lost and confused". It meant they were THINKING on their own, trying to figure things out. They were ENGAGING with the world and thinking deeply about what it all meant. They were growing up.

Like I said, they seem to have settled down as atheists as young adults, but I never forced that viewpoint on them. They are certainly not "lost and confused". They know what they want from life, are working on their college degrees, and have laudable goals and realistic expectations from life.

My daughter is still a teenager, but she's almost 18 now. She has never been as interested in religious discussions as her brothers and seemed content to simply view herself as a "christian", although when I would talk to her about what that meant, I think it would be more accurate to call her a deist. Again, I have never tried to influence her thinking on this subject, and I don't force conversations upon her. She is also not "lost and confused".

My children are very intelligent, responsible young adults and I'm very proud of them. I made a lot of mistakes, like every other parent does, but the one thing I always did right was to respect them and their minds. I've worked with children my entire life, and know that they DO think deeply about things, and they DO form their own opinions on matters. Any adult who thinks otherwise, and thinks that it's the adults job to "make" or "mold" them to "think the right things" is simply an adult who has not conveyed this respect for children's thoughts, and thereby, children do not feel free to share those thoughts with that adult. Believe me, they still have those thoughts. They just are sensitive in regards to which adults to share them with.

[_why me]

From what I have seen in my neck of the woods, those children raised without a constructive belief system usually end up lost and confused.

Please define and clarify "lost and confused".

I am sure that you gave your children a constructive belief system which was perhaps founded in forms of humanism. I don't believe that you allowed your children to go through their childhood without some attempt at constructive value learning. It is almost impossible for a parent to separate themselves from a child's socialization process. All most likely share the same home, regardless if divorced or not. The parents do mold aspects of the child's personality.

Those that are raised without a constructive value system can be rather confused and lost as they go through puberty and young adulthood. I see it in my own area as young people offer their bodies for jeans, alcohol, other material goods and money. I have also seen many young people dress in black and red, with Satanic symbols on their clothing drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.

Many children are lost looking for a purpose. And the parents do not have the skills or time to give their children good values and understandings. It was just published in the newspapers that baby abuse is increasing (parents that abuse their babies) as is violence. Not good.

And so constructive values are important and it is the responsibility of the parents to mold such values in their children.

[_beastie]

I am sure that you gave your children a constructive belief system which was perhaps founded in forms of humanism. I don't believe that you allowed your children to go through their childhood without some attempt at constructive value learning. It is almost impossible for a parent to separate themselves from a child's socialization process. All most likely share the same home, regardless if divorced or not. The parents do mold aspects of the child's personality.

Those that are raised without a constructive value system can be rather confused and lost as they go through puberty and young adulthood. I see it in my own area as young people offer their bodies for jeans, alcohol, other material goods and money. I have also seen many young people dress in black and red, with Satanic symbols on their clothing drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.

Many children are lost looking for a purpose. And the parents do not have the skills or time to give their children good values and understandings. It was just published in the newspapers that baby abuse is increasing (parents that abuse their babies) as is violence. Not good.

And so constructive values are important and it is the responsibility of the parents to mold such values in their children.

Of course I taught them my moral values. But that wasn't what this thread was about, this thread was about whether or not children needed to be forced to be schooled within a specific religious system. I have no doubt that cinepro would continue to share his own moral values with his son, even if he did not force his son to go to the LDS church. I'm sure you don't doubt it, either - so if you're just talking about moral values in some generic sense, your earlier comment was meaningless in regards to the topic of this thread.

[_Gadianton]

And so constructive values are important and it is the responsibility of the parents to mold such values in their children.

Absolutely. And how better to instill those values than through the words of a 19th century womanizer, boozer, and money-digger.