Shades, some clarity please on policy

[_marg]

Shades, as you know I’ve asked for some clarity in a pm to you. Not received a response yet but there have been indications that even Mods are unsure what you mean as far as how the Celestial differs from Terrestial in how it should be moderated.

Can you clarify please in greater detail what you mean by heavily moderated in Celestial versus less moderation in Terrestial. You had said to me “It(the celestial) is heavily moderated. It just might not be heavily moderated for what individual participants think it should be heavily moderated for.”

So could you please explain what an individual participant should think the Celestial is heavily moderated for as opposed to the Terrestial forum. In particular can you please address posts which are laced with “ personal attacks” which obviously have a negative affect on “tone’. Is it your policy on this board to move entire threads from Celestial to Terrestial, when one or a few posters affect the tone in a thread with negative frequent personal attacks of others?

[_Dr. Shades]

In brief, since I'll be doing a major treatise shortly anyway:

It's heavily moderated for language. The major words that are disallowed here are disallowed there, too, but with the addition of such words as "bitch," "ass," "piss," etc. also being censor-worthy.

Thanks to your suggestion, we're going to be more careful on bumping threads down to the Terrestrial Forum. From now on, we'll only do it if EVERYONE is speaking Terrestrially, not just one person, in order to avoid the scenario of one person intentionally sabotaging an entire thread.

We'd ideally like to delete or split comments that are ad hominem or personal attacks, but those get into fuzzy areas of subjectivity. What's cut-and-dry to me may not be cut-and-dry to you and vice-versa. Plus there's the tensor between wanting to keep the Celestial Forum clean vs. wanting to keep a discussion intact. After all, the board is called "Mormon Discussions" not "Mormon splits and deletes."

So, please realize that discussion even in the Celestial Forum should be, ultimately, for your own entertainment, not as a repository for a collection of Masters' Theses.

And yes, even false arguments are okay, just so long as they're delivered politely.

[_Bond...James Bond]

After all, the board is called "Mormon Discussions" not "Mormon splits and deletes."

Wait a sec....you chose Mormon Discussions over that awesome name? Were you smoking dope with keene at 2 in the morning and just spitballing stuff? You had Gold...and you threw it away. No wonder the LDS won't post here. ;P

[_CaliforniaKid]

So, please realize that discussion even in the Celestial Forum should be, ultimately, for your own entertainment, not as a repository for a collection of Masters' Theses.

Dammit! I've been look for a place to store my master's theses, and I was hoping this might be it!

[_marg]

In brief, since I'll be doing a major treatise shortly anyway:

It's heavily moderated for language. The major words that are disallowed here are disallowed there, too, but with the addition of such words as "bitch," "ass," "piss," etc. also being censor-worthy.

Thanks to your suggestion, we're going to be more careful on bumping threads down to the Terrestrial Forum. From now on, we'll only do it if EVERYONE is speaking Terrestrially, not just one person, in order to avoid the scenario of one person intentionally sabotaging an entire thread.

We'd ideally like to delete or split comments that are ad hominem or personal attacks, but those get into fuzzy areas of subjectivity. What's cut-and-dry to me may not be cut-and-dry to you and vice-versa. Plus there's the tensor between wanting to keep the Celestial Forum clean vs. wanting to keep a discussion intact. After all, the board is called "Mormon Discussions" not "Mormon splits and deletes."

So, please realize that discussion even in the Celestial Forum should be, ultimately, for your own entertainment, not as a repository for a collection of Masters' Theses.

And yes, even false arguments are okay, just so long as they're delivered politely.

Thanks.

For the record I have on numerous occasions argued against moving entire threads to another area of the board where attacks are legitimized. So contrary to what you think that has never been my suggestion. That is apparently what you have been telling mods.

I also have never thought the Celestial should be a repository of Master's thesis that was the impression I think you have given to this board by saying it should be for scholarly discussion. I only think it should be a place for respectful honest discussion, as opposed to dishonest game playing fallacious tactics.

The only thing as a participant I expected from the term "heavily moderated" is that offenders who harrass, who argue by frequent personal attack would be dealt with, in such a way as to curtail their disingenuous gameplaying. It becomes tiring and waste of one's time responding to unwarranted personal attacks. Apparently your policy only serves to encourage them. I have no intentions of going to their level, nor wasting my time doing so.

Thanks for letting me know your policy. If I don't participate in the future you'll know why.

***Edit: I've reread your response and appreciate I misunderstood your line "Thanks to your suggestion, we're going to be more careful on bumping threads down to the Terrestrial Forum." as meaning you were going to be more careful to bump threads down, which is not the case.

I agree it is a better policy to not bump threads, as they are disruptive and accomplish very little if anything.

As far as allowing threads with ad homs posts to stay in the Celestial, with one or two offenders, I agree that is a preferable way to handle it by allowing the thread to stay, but mods need to appreciate that pointing out ad homs of others, is not arguing fallaciously nor a fallacious attack on the offender.

I seem to remember Sam Harris being rather perturbed that this was being done. I appreciate she stepped down as a mod, but just wanted to point out there is a reason ad homs or any fallacious argumention is pointed out.

[_Yoda]

I don't think that Sam was upset that ad hom's were being pointed out. I think her frustration was similar to what has been frustrating to all of the Mods. And that is playing referee to adults who should know better. It looks like Shades has come up with some solutions, and I, for one, am very supportive of what he will be putting into place going forward.

[_marg]

I don't think that Sam was upset that ad hom's were being pointed out. I think her frustration was similar to what has been frustrating to all of the Mods. And that is playing referee to adults who should know better. It looks like Shades has come up with some solutions, and I, for one, am very supportive of what he will be putting into place going forward.

Liz there was only one person in that thread, who consistently, laced virtually all his posts with personal attacks, and that was Kevin. Sam had no problems with how Kevin, argued, in fact she thinks he argued well. She clearly made it known her problem was with anyone in that thread who should point out Kevin's personal attacks. I appreciate that a lot went on behind the scenes between the women mods of this board, and it ended up affecting how they involved themselves and how it played out.
GoodK, JAK and I were innocent. And we didn't complain about Kevin to any mod, what we did was point out ad homs, or at least I know I did, and I believe GoodK did. That's not because I expect a Mod to interfere, it is to acknowledge when fallacious argumention is employed. We were left with little other choice in response to him, because even after twice being asked to stop by Shades he continued. And Kevin has been quite open on this board as a matter of fact, that he has a personal interest in attacking JAK, doing whatever tactics it takes , his reasoning being he doesn't want anyone to be influenced by him.

I agree with Shades that because moderating is difficult and subjective, it is best to not move threads based on one offender.

P.S. I wouldn't have brought any of this up if it weren't for the implication you give in your post that somehow everyone involved on that thread was a trouble maker, or that Sam was justified setting up her ad hom thread to trap any of those people in the thread who had pointed out Kevin's personal attacks.

[_Moniker]

I have a suggestion.... don't know if it would be helpful or not. Yet, I'm going to throw it out there.

If there is a thread that is laced with questionable posts why not start a new thread to hash out the problem with the posts down in terrestrial or telestial? Just copy and paste said posts into a new thread and the participants can work it out there instead of bogging down the thread in celestial with the back and forth?

Then if actions need to be taken it can be done so (in celestial with the thread in question) without the thread itself going off into pointing out adhoms repeatedly?

[_Yoda]

P.S. I wouldn't have brought any of this up if it weren't for the implication you give in your post that somehow everyone involved on that thread was a trouble maker, or that Sam was justified setting up her ad hom thread to trap any of those people in the thread who had pointed out Kevin's personal attacks.

First of all,

1. I was NOT and DID NOT mean to imply that everyone involved in the thread was a troublemaker. All I meant was that from an outsider looking in (since I was not personally participating in the thread), it simply seemed that issues continued to escalate and that even after Shades gave several warnings, they didn't really calm down. I REFUSE to go into a "who said what" in regards to that thread, so don't even attempt to go there.

2. I DID NOT state that Sam was justified in her ad hom thread. Frankly, I don't think her ad hom thread was a wise move. And, in retrospect, I don't really think that she does, either. I think that her health and personal issues clouded her judgment, and she basically stated that in another thread in off topic.

3. What I DID state was that Sam's frustration came from the same place that the frustration which all of the Mods felt. And that is, simply that it gets a little wearing to have to constantly monitor adults who should know better. Period.

[_marg]

Liz, I've said all I want to say and at this point, I'm going to move forward.