Church Surveillance

[_Bond...James Bond]

I sometimes think I'm nebbish. :/

If you did a quick Google of literary and film characters who are described as nebbishes, I think you'll find some very likeable and even charming examples. Its not the worst thing to be called by a long shot. While I'm not smitten with arch-nebbish Woody Allen, there are plenty who fall within that category that I find appealing.

Okay I'm not nebbish in the physical sense like Woody Allen (I could be somewhat Stuessian if I wanted to I guess)...so maybe it's just an inner thing.

[_rcrocket]

Who has done more of this, more effectively and more diversely, than Quinn? I'll be waiting patiently for you to enlighten me.

Which of his books have been published in peer-reviewed organs?

We've already had this discussion, Bob. Feel free to re-read the thread entitled "Mike Quinn" which was begun by Jason Bourne. You fled the scene before responding to a rather plangent question posed to you by Dr. Shades.

I fled no scene. I only post and read occasionally. Please tell me which of his books were published in peer-reviewed organs. Just one. (I know there is one, but let's see if you get it.)

[_rcrocket]

rcrocket is not feeding you the truth, why me. Dallin Oaks himself admitted that the Church was using unethical tactics in order to ferret out homosexuals and other "dissidents." These unethical tactics included electronic surveillance and unwarranted searches of dorm rooms, etc.

Cite please, for all these assertions.

You can find accounts of the Oaks-related debacle in the following:

SLT Trib, Mar. 22, 1975, in an article entitled, "Ex-BYU Security Officer Tells of Intrigue, Spying."
NY Times, Sept. 27 1979, article "Brigham Young U. Admits Stakeouts on Homosexuals."

I disagree. The NY Times article is the one which quotes Oaks. Which paragraph constitutes the admission from Oaks you claim?

Pdf the Trib article please to rcrocket[at]msn.com

[_Mister Scratch]

rcrocket is not feeding you the truth, why me. Dallin Oaks himself admitted that the Church was using unethical tactics in order to ferret out homosexuals and other "dissidents." These unethical tactics included electronic surveillance and unwarranted searches of dorm rooms, etc.

Cite please, for all these assertions.

You can find accounts of the Oaks-related debacle in the following:

SLT Trib, Mar. 22, 1975, in an article entitled, "Ex-BYU Security Officer Tells of Intrigue, Spying."
NY Times, Sept. 27 1979, article "Brigham Young U. Admits Stakeouts on Homosexuals."

I disagree. The NY Times article is the one which quotes Oaks. Which paragraph constitutes the admission from Oaks you claim?

Huh? Oaks's admission came via the mouth of Church gopher-boy Paul Richards. C'mon, Bobby---you made it sound like you actually bothered to read the article.

Pdf the Trib article please to rcrocket[at]msn.com

How dumb do you think I am? I'm not going to be emailing you *anything*, Bob. Particularly in light of the fact that you have provided no print sources for your claims regarding BYU spying, nor have you provided the names of these professors you supposedly interviewed.

[_The Nehor]

Not projection....retaliation. Note the difference. I'll make a deal Pokatator. If Scratch alters his blog entry with the corrections I gave him (and that he was just speculating on) I'll stop. Until then, Uncle Creepy seems a fitting title for a lonely man on the Internet who spends his time speculating and researching people's masturbatory habits.

There is nothing "incorrect" about the dossier, Nehor. Let's pause a moment to review your complaints:

1) You stated that the tidbit about you seeing/speaking to a "God" or "Jesus" was somehow incorrect. The blog entry itself does not seem wrong. Thus, no correction is needed.

2) You claim that the Belial sockpuppet was not deleted due to any "embarrassment." This seems highly questionable. When asked about it, you got very touchy and defensive. Is this rock-solid evidence of "embarrassment"? Well, no... But it is good enough evidence as far as I'm concerrned. Thus, no correction is needed.

3) You complained at being labeled "nebbish," and in fact this appears to have bothered you so much that you fired up a thread inquiring into the accuracy of the term. Unfortunately for you, other posters (such as Blixa and Liz) did indeed concur that you are "nebbish." Thus, no correction is needed.

I'm terribly sorry, my dear Nehor, but I just can't see any good reason to change what is quite a solid and accurate dossier, though if you can concoct some better argument for changing it, I'm always open to suggestions.

Well, a short response.

1) My fault, what you have said is inaccurate but trying to explain it to you would be more trouble then it is worth. It is still completely wrong and says I made claims I have never made.

2) I didn't get touchy and defensive. In fact I used Belial as running joke for a while even after he was completely exposed. Perhaps just a note that I deny the accusation and my reasons why as a competing theory?

3) Well actually despite being a Lit major I had no idea what nebbish meant. After looking it up, I questioned whether the term applies to me. I now find it funny. Of course it is a subjective analysis much like calling you Uncle Creepy Pedophile.

Please stop calling me 'my dear'. It creeps me out.

[_rcrocket]

Huh? Oaks's admission came via the mouth of Church gopher-boy Paul Richards. C'mon, Bobby---you made it sound like you actually bothered to read the article.

I have this article. Please tell me exactly what it is Elder (then President) Oaks was supposed to have said which constituted the admission of ethical lapses you assert he admitted, above.

Pdf the Trib article please to rcrocket[at]msn.com

How dumb do you think I am? I'm not going to be emailing you *anything*, Bob. Particularly in light of the fact that you have provided no print sources for your claims regarding BYU spying, nor have you provided the names of these professors you supposedly interviewed.

I think they are unrelated issues.

I would appreciate it if you would demonstrate to me that you actually possess the Trib article by emailing it to me. You know I have charged you in the past of citing sources as primary sources when you don't have the source. When I have asked in the past for proof you have the source it is always the same -- you aren't going to do my spade work. In any event, I don't have it, I'd like it and I am very interested to see if it supports your assertion of Oaks' admissions. Consider a request for a personal favor to add it to my library. I will concede your argument about Oaks if it says he or the Church admitted to ethical lapses.

As to the BYU spying case, it is fairly well discussed elsewhere. I particularly found Gregory Prince's work on David O McKay a compelling read on the subject, naming names. The spy ring was instigated by students. Pres. Wilkinson (who denies commissioning it in his edited multivolume history of BYU) with a wink and a nod apparently listened to its results. When Wilkinson pressured the seven profs to resign, they appealed to my grandfather who took the matter to the Board of Trustees, which then understood what was going on and offered to reinstate the profs. Not all accepted the offer. One, accused by the students of being disloyal to the Church, not attending meetings and being a communist, went on to be a Reagan kitchen cabinet member and then a General Authority.

And, really, my name is not "Bobby." I would prefer that you call me Bob or rcrocket or Crockett. Just a personal request.

Bob

[_rcrocket]

Please stop calling me 'my dear'. It creeps me out.

Scratch is a woman. Deal with it.

[_Mister Scratch]

Huh? Oaks's admission came via the mouth of Church gopher-boy Paul Richards. C'mon, Bobby---you made it sound like you actually bothered to read the article.

I have this article. Please tell me exactly what it is Elder (then President) Oaks was supposed to have said which constituted the admission of ethical lapses you assert he admitted, above.

Oaks, via Richards, admitted that BYU security had been engaged in tracking down and "staking out" homosexuals. Feel free to post the full-text of the article, Bob.

Pdf the Trib article please to rcrocket[at]msn.com

How dumb do you think I am? I'm not going to be emailing you *anything*, Bob. Particularly in light of the fact that you have provided no print sources for your claims regarding BYU spying, nor have you provided the names of these professors you supposedly interviewed.

I think they are unrelated issues.

Really? But they're both related to the BYU spy ring....

I would appreciate it if you would demonstrate to me that you actually possess the Trib article by emailing it to me. You know I have charged you in the past of citing sources as primary sources when you don't have the source. When I have asked in the past for proof you have the source it is always the same -- you aren't going to do my spade work. In any event, I don't have it, I'd like it and I am very interested to see if it supports your assertion of Oaks' admissions. Consider a request for a personal favor to add it to my library. I will concede your argument about Oaks if it says he or the Church admitted to ethical lapses.

I don't care what you would concede, Bob. I'm not emailing anything to you. Further, I never said that this article stated that Oaks' "admitted" to anything. I said that you could find an account of the "Oaks-related debacle"---i.e., referring to the admission that BYU unethically was using stake-outs, polygraph machines, and electronic surveillance equipment to spy on "dissidents."

As to the BYU spying case, it is fairly well discussed elsewhere. I particularly found Gregory Prince's work on David O McKay a compelling read on the subject, naming names. The spy ring was instigated by students.

This is according to Prince? Or Wilkinson? Or you? Care to cite an actual passage of text? Further, is BYU security purely "student-run"? I don't think so. And it was BYU security, apparently, who were responsible for using "electronic devices" to spy on students, especially suspected homosexuals. Feel free to cf. Quinn's The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, pg. 309 for more on this. Quinn apparently looked at a document indicating that BYU security was in contact with the FBI during this period.

Pres. Wilkinson (who denies commissioning it in his edited multivolume history of BYU) with a wink and a nod apparently listened to its results. When Wilkinson pressured the seven profs to resign, they appealed to my grandfather who took the matter to the Board of Trustees, which then understood what was going on and offered to reinstate the profs. Not all accepted the offer. One, accused by the students of being disloyal to the Church, not attending meetings and being a communist, went on to be a Reagan kitchen cabinet member and then a General Authority.

Still no sources? Still no names? Hmmm..... I have to say, your claim that the spy ring was "student-run" may land you in some very hot rhetorical water, counselor.... This may be as grave a slip-up as your MMM article omission.

[_The Nehor]

Please stop calling me 'my dear'. It creeps me out.

Scratch is a woman. Deal with it.

I'm a masculinist and demand equal treatment. I should not have to endure feminine rule simply because I'm male.

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, a short response.

1) My fault, what you have said is inaccurate but trying to explain it to you would be more trouble then it is worth. It is still completely wrong and says I made claims I have never made.

Here is what the blog says:

Of special interest is The Nehor's repeated assertions that he has actually seen and spoken to Jesus Christ and/or other "Gods"---a claim which is normally reserved for General Authorities. When asked to go into more detail about these visitations, Nehor typically demurs.

Here's you, in a post from today:

No, it is not. I have actually seen my parents. When was the last time you "saw" god?

A couple of years ago. We've talked a lot since though.

Here's another post in which you indicate that you've "spoken with" Jesus:

When Jesus told me to love everyone it is not eros he had in mind. If I didn't help anyone I didn't want a romantic relationship with I would be borderline amoral.

(emphasis added)

Here's another post where you claim that you "talked with God":

Well, Jesus did tell the people to render to Caesar before they render unto God. At least the phrasing makes it sound that way. I pay net. I talked it over with God and got an okay. If he wants me to switch he knows how to contact me.

(emphasis added)

I'm sorry, Nehor, but your really have no case in claiming that the dossier is "completely wrong."

2) I didn't get touchy and defensive. In fact I used Belial as running joke for a while even after he was completely exposed. Perhaps just a note that I deny the accusation and my reasons why as a competing theory?

The "note" is present in your own comment.

3) Well actually despite being a Lit major I had no idea what nebbish meant. After looking it up, I questioned whether the term applies to me. I now find it funny. Of course it is a subjective analysis much like calling you Uncle Creepy Pedophile.

Wow, you really have sunk pretty low, Nehor, having to rely on name-calling of this nature. I know that I have never stooped to such lows as trying to label an opponent a "pedophile" in order to try and score a point. This must be one of those moments where you feel on the verge of needing to step away, eh? I.e., that your frustration and nebbishness are getting the better of you?