Church Surveillance

[_Trevor]

So much comes from lips of critics. I'll bite on your list.

It is simply a fact that the LDS Church has acquired something of a cloak and dagger aspect to its image. Why you even bother attempting to refute what is a perception is beyond me. It seems you are unable to distinguish between claims about perception and factual claims. Since you have fundamentally misread my post, I see no reason to respond to you point by point.

[_rcrocket]

Scratch, you obviously do not possess the two newspaper articles you claim as primary sources. What follows this quote? "But, when President [Dallin] Oaks got involved, he said." Pres. Oak's response does not support your assertion of an admission of ethical lapses.

It does. Oaks himself did not come out and say, "Yeah, we were guilty of this stuff, and we're sorry." Rather, he sent his lackey, Paul Richards, to go and deliver a statement to the press. I have stated elsewhere that Oaks', in essence, admitted that these "cloak and dagger" activities had occurred, and this NY Times article is evidence that, yes, in fact, Oaks acknowledged that this stuff was taking place. The fact that (according to Richards) Oaks supposedly said "Cut that out right now" is proof of this acknowledgment.

Now that is a stretch. Go back to your Quinn.

Waiting, waiting for the Trib article.

Waiting, waiting for proof for your assertion that BYU Spy Ring is a phrase used with the purported homosexual purges. This is one I want to see.

[_rcrocket]

So much comes from lips of critics. I'll bite on your list.

It is simply a fact that the LDS Church has acquired something of a cloak and dagger aspect to its image. Why you even bother attempting to refute what is a perception is beyond me. It seems you are unable to distinguish between claims about perception and factual claims. Since you have fundamentally misread my post, I see no reason to respond to you point by point.

For good reason, I can see. Trafficking in perceptions is a good way to be critical without any support.

[_moksha]

Earl Crockett, Academic VP.

Could someone elaborate on the BYU Spy Ring that Earl Crockett, Academic VP helped bust up? It sounds ominous.

[_moksha]

How dumb do you think I am? I'm not going to be emailing you *anything*, Bob. Particularly in light of the fact that you have provided no print sources for your claims regarding BYU spying, nor have you provided the names of these professors you supposedly interviewed.

He merely wants your email address to forward a credit card that you have qualified for. by the way, two men with white shirts and black ties will be delivering it in person.

[_wenglund]

So much comes from lips of critics. I'll bite on your list.

It is simply a fact that the LDS Church has acquired something of a cloak and dagger aspect to its image. Why you even bother attempting to refute what is a perception is beyond me. It seems you are unable to distinguish between claims about perception and factual claims. Since you have fundamentally misread my post, I see no reason to respond to you point by point.

It seems that someone has become so enamoured with is own biased opinion as to mistakenly consider it "fact".

The shear hubris of this is exceeded only by his misthinking that others would accept it as "fact" as well, let alone falsely presuming that such a declaration somehow absolves him of the need to respond to reasoned counter-arguments and requests for substantiation.

Evidently, Scratch is not alone in the Twilight Zone. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

Scratch, you obviously do not possess the two newspaper articles you claim as primary sources. What follows this quote? "But, when President [Dallin] Oaks got involved, he said." Pres. Oak's response does not support your assertion of an admission of ethical lapses.

It does. Oaks himself did not come out and say, "Yeah, we were guilty of this stuff, and we're sorry." Rather, he sent his lackey, Paul Richards, to go and deliver a statement to the press. I have stated elsewhere that Oaks', in essence, admitted that these "cloak and dagger" activities had occurred, and this NY Times article is evidence that, yes, in fact, Oaks acknowledged that this stuff was taking place. The fact that (according to Richards) Oaks supposedly said "Cut that out right now" is proof of this acknowledgment.

Now that is a stretch. Go back to your Quinn.

Waiting, waiting for the Trib article.

Waiting, waiting for evidence that the "anti-liberal spy-ring" was run purely by students. Waiting, waiting for the names of the Profs. and for actual substantiation of your claims.

Waiting, waiting for proof for your assertion that BYU Spy Ring is a phrase used with the purported homosexual purges. This is one I want to see.

*I* used that phrase, and I used it in connection with the spying that has historically gone on at BYU. Never did I claim that it was some kind of "Standard Term," Bob. If you have evidence that it is, then by all means, provide it. The way I see it, "spy ring" can refer to any network of people engaged in espionage-related activities. So, it seems you are just splitting semantic hairs in order to try and distract from the embarrassing fact that BYU has had multiple "spy rings."

[_Trevor]

For good reason, I can see. Trafficking in perceptions is a good way to be critical without any support.

Oh, there is plenty of evidence out there that the LDS Church has done things like collect intelligence on polygamists, critics, etc. That, coupled with the not-necessarily-accurate perception that they were connected with more troubling things is what creates fear of the organization--fear that is not *completely* unreasonable. Do your own homework, Bob. Your request for "citations" is simply a species of denial. When we provide you the sources, you say they aren't good enough. You don't care to know whether your opponents have a point. If you were to admit that they do, you would only be discomfiting yourself in a way you obviously aren't prepared to be. In other words, you are generally very uncritical yourself. You can't be truly critical. Just admit it.

If you need evidence, simply go back and read my original post, which was hardly extravagantly negative. In essence, it simply showed what we know to be true: that many people do not trust the LDS Church. While you look at it as the fault of the people who do not trust, it is in fact as much the problem of the LDS Church itself. Organizations that take responsibility for their negative image, and try to do something substantive about it, have a better chance at trust and respectability. It took the failure of the Romney campaign, and the accompanying revelation that many people still distrust the Church, that may have shocked the sleeping giant into motion. I notice they changed their tune on the Mountain Meadows monument pretty damn quick.

[_Trevor]

*I* used that phrase, and I used it in connection with the spying that has historically gone on at BYU. Never did I claim that it was some kind of "Standard Term," Bob. If you have evidence that it is, then by all means, provide it. The way I see it, "spy ring" can refer to any network of people engaged in espionage-related activities. So, it seems you are just splitting semantic hairs in order to try and distract from the embarrassing fact that BYU has had multiple "spy rings."

Will Bob take the time to read "The Lord's University: Freedom and Authority at BYU" by Waterman and Kagel? Or is it beneath him to read such things that come out of Signature Books? I suppose a critical thinker like Bob won't prejudge a book simply because of the reputation of the press that published it. Surely a critical thinker like Bob reads all the information and judges the arguments, not simply book spines.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Please stop calling me 'my dear'. It creeps me out.

Scratch is a woman. Deal with it.

Serious? I think I just might buy into that theory.

Does it matter?

What's it to you?