Are spirits stupid?

Post by **_asbestosman** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:48 pm

Do you suppose there's such a thing as spirit temperature? I guess if spirit is made of matter, there must be.

Post by **_wenglund** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:56 pm

asbestosman wrote:Do you suppose there's such a thing as spirit temperature? I guess if spirit is made of matter, there must be.

I have found some spirits to be cool. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Post by **_asbestosman** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:04 pm

wenglund wrote:
asbestosman wrote:Do you suppose there's such a thing as spirit temperature? I guess if spirit is made of matter, there must be.

I have found some spirits to be cool. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Forget sweet spirits, my wife has a hot spirit.

My spirit is a little bitter and sometimes a bit salty. But some disagree and maintain that my spirit is tasteless and often colorless (or off-color).

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:41 pm

All this silly spirit talk is another fine example of a comfortable idea and working backwards to make it seem real. People just don't want death to be the end, so they cling to the "my spirit will live on" crap and will go to great lengths to make it seem not only plausible, but scholarly as well.

It's not the first time people sacrificed rational thought and common sense for personal comfort, and it won't be the last.

Post by **_Tarski** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:54 pm

SeekerofTruth wrote:

Your self-analysis is interesting but seems to avoid my question. Perhaps I did not phrase it clearly. Do you have the experience of being conscious -- of being aware of what's going on around you -- even of metacognition? When you wrote were you aware of what you were writing or was it purely unconscious behavior?

I experience things, the world, my feeling, my thoughts, the trees etc.

I assume that I am interacting with a sentient being similar to myself and not a biological machine or a computer, although I may be deceived.

I am similar to you. We are both biological machines.

Do you admit to being conscious?

If you mean in a mysterious way that just couldn't be the activity of a brain then no I don't. I experience nothing that couldn't be the activity of matter-though I used to be sure I did. Experience seems somehow beyond brain activity but so what? Things often seem different than they are.

If so, demonstrate your consciousness in some physical way that cannot be misinterpreted as the activity of your brain

I can't do that since it IS the activity of my brain (and endocrine system etc). Aren't you just helping my point?
What is this extra thing of which you speak?

Who is the we -- or in your case the I -- that you are referring to that is so astutely analyzing consciousness? Do you experience this "I" as real and that it has some degree of control over your behavior? Does the "I" have any material substance to it? Is it stupid?

I am a functioning body/brain with a set of self concepts. I refer to myself. Here I am made of flesh.

Post by **_asbestosman** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:58 pm

Tarski wrote:They notice each computer is a bit different. They invent the idea of a thinking or computing "essence" in the computer. Broken ones don't have this essence anymore and that's why they don't work. They are "dead".
Then someone wonders why the essence can't exist on its own? They conjecture that it does but we can't see it.
Now when someone comes along and say, hey you know what? I think this essence is not a real thing. Its all just those parts in there. Everyone is incredulous (lets say that they have gotten really used to this--like as used to it as we are to using our brains). They think this guy a fool. They claim he can't see the obvious.

Can you see my point?

I guess, but then I've never heard of computer "essence" sightings. I wonder if the handshake test would work? Maybe I'd have to use the Kerberos 3-way handshake? I wonder.

Post by **_LifeOnaPlate** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:54 pm

Incidentally, I believe the elephant argument was made in the Clementine Recognitions by a rebel rouser listening to Peter preaching in Athens or something.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:31 pm

asbestosman wrote:I guess, but then I've never heard of computer "essence" sightings. I wonder if the handshake test would work? Maybe I'd have to use the Kerberos 3-way handshake? I wonder.

Ghost and spirit sightings are creations of the mind. It's just like when I'm asleep and dreaming that I'm flying around, or flying a helicopter, or using magic, or any number of other things. They seem real, and I see and hear, and feel things in my dreams, but it's all made up by my brain - none of it is really happening.

Consider the retina. It is not continuous, but rather a 2-D(ish) grid of discrete light-sensing cells. What our eyeballs actually "see" is a fine grid of what must be likened unto pixels on a computer screen. The continuous image that we "see" in our minds is actually a creation of our brain. Our brain has taken the grid of discrete light detections as signals sent along nerve fibers, and interpreted it as a continuous image of the world around us.

A high-tension power line may look like a solid, continuous wire hung from towers a mile away, but in fact that 1 inch cable is about 1/10th of the height of just one eye "pixel" in the vertical dimension*. So how is it that you can actually "see" the cable hanging there? Your brain picks up hints of the cable's detection by a smattering of retina cells along the cable's curved arc, and it will realize that it's seeing a continuous cable, and generate that image in your mind as part of what you see. Now imagine that you can still "see" the power cable hanging there from five or more miles away, and it's actually quite a miracle that you can see it at all!

Since the mind is such an important part of the process of vision, in a lot of ways, the brain can, and will "see" what it wants, and expects, to see.

* look here and then run the math, to verify what I'm saying

Post by **_asbestosman** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:41 pm

Sethbag wrote:
asbestosman wrote:I guess, but then I've never heard of computer "essence" sightings. I wonder if the handshake test would work? Maybe I'd have to use the Kerberos 3-way handshake? I wonder.

Ghost and spirit sightings are creations of the mind. It's just like when I'm asleep and dreaming that I'm flying around, or flying a helicopter, or using magic, or any number of other things. They seem real, and I see and hear, and feel things in my dreams, but it's all made up by my brain - none of it is really happening.

But some spirit sightings appear to do important things like deliver priesthood keys, or the golden plates. Other spirits seem to provide important warnings like telling Joseph to leave town with Mary and baby Jesus. Others tell of great events like the birth of the Savior.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:14 am

asbestosman wrote:
Sethbag wrote:
asbestosman wrote:I guess, but then I've never heard of computer "essence" sightings. I wonder if the handshake test would work? Maybe I'd have to use the Kerberos 3-way handshake? I wonder.

Ghost and spirit sightings are creations of the mind. It's just like when I'm asleep and dreaming that I'm flying around, or flying a helicopter, or using magic, or any number of other things. They seem real, and I see and hear, and feel things in my dreams, but it's all made up by my brain - none of it is really happening.

But some spirit sightings appear to do important things like deliver priesthood keys, or the golden plates. Other spirits seem to provide important warnings like telling Joseph to leave town with Mary and baby Jesus. Others tell of great events like the birth of the Savior.

Some "sightings" are the result of hallucination, while others are just made up. Joseph Smith made up the appearance of angels delivering priesthood keys, either at the time, or subsequently as his story grew and "improved".