Did DCP Just Do What I Think He Did?

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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Nightingale wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Well, now Prof. P. is stating very openly that, even from the perspective of his Mopologetic eyes, the Church is sometimes dishonest:

I've observed several cases where statements from Church members or even from the Public Affairs Department have seemed to me not to be as straightforward as I would have preferred.


I've been around long enough now to know the answer to this one:

Statements from church members or the PAD do not constitute statements from The Church!

Therefore, it is not The Church that is being "not straightforward".

I am not sure, in fact, which statements *are* attributed to "The Church". It could be only The Big Three or maybe only The Prophet but even then, only sometimes.


Yup, you're right about that. Look at this latest gripe:

Daniel Peterson wrote: My Malevolent Stalker [TM] says that I've now admitted that "the Church is sometimes dishonest."

He's wrong. I haven't.

He seldom gets anything right. Not where I'm concerned, anyway. I can't tell whether it's by design or owing to incapacity.



My .02 is this: if official representatives of the LDS Church do something that is "not straightforward," and, in fact, if they do such things multiple times, then it is perfectly reasonable to state that "the Church is sometimes dishonest." In any case, the original JFS quote basically has him advising a member to lie about the Christ-Marriage doctrine---i.e., "Don't cast your pearls," etc.
_karl61
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Post by _karl61 »

All religions deceive and promote a false sense of security - Mormonism is no different; especially Mormonism.
I want to fly!
_amantha
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Post by _amantha »

DCP wrote:Such things can be debated everlastingly.


Daniel elaborates on the real purpose of apologetics.
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

trying to explain how lying is okay sometimes


Do you agree with the example he gave? I do and I'm sure you do too.
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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

bcspace wrote:
trying to explain how lying is okay sometimes


Do you agree with the example he gave? I do and I'm sure you do too.


Hmm. Well, how can this example be properly extended into the realm of LDS apologetics? I.e., what example might one use in order to avoid falling into the trap of the False Analogy? DCP suggested that Joseph Smith's lying about polygamy was somehow "okay." I'm not sure how or why The Good Professor (or anyone else) would want to place that kind of lying on a par with lying to the Nazis in order to protect Jews.
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

DCP clearly equated Joseph Smith's lie with something akin to a harmless little white lie. There can be no doubt from the context. He is either being totally disingenuous or he thinks everyone else is just plain stupid.

Really, Dan is sometimes just plain embarrassing.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

In his situation, what would I have done? I don't know. Joseph knew that plural marriage could mean his death. And it probably did.


This excuse always makes me shake my head. I call it the "weak God" excuse.

Here, the God of this Universe, you know the one who created it, made galaxies, stars, planet Earth, all of life, the God who helped Moses part the red sea, the God who can change hearts, and perform all sorts of miracles, can't keep Joseph alive if he tells the truth?

I really do not get the "weak God" justification.

It seems a common excuse for everything that is unseemly.

Why polygamy? God couldn't come up with any other way to "raise seed".

Why the ban on black? God couldn't figure out any other way to manage the racism on Earth.

Why command Nephi to kill Laban? God couldn't figure out any other way to have him die.

Why command Moses and Joshua to slaughter the Canaanite children and babies? God couldn't come up with another way.

Why "insert any other horrible thing people did/do in the name of God" and it is because God couldn't figure out any other way.

What silliness!

:-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

DCP is a clown. Why in the world BYU would want this man around, doing what he does, is beyond me. I suppose that's the image they're comfortable with...
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

truth dancer wrote:
In his situation, what would I have done? I don't know. Joseph knew that plural marriage could mean his death. And it probably did.


This excuse always makes me shake my head. I call it the "weak God" excuse.

Here, the God of this Universe, you know the one who created it, made galaxies, stars, planet Earth, all of life, the God who helped Moses part the red sea, the God who can change hearts, and perform all sorts of miracles, can't keep Joseph alive if he tells the truth?

I really do not get the "weak God" justification.

It seems a common excuse for everything that is unseemly.

Why polygamy? God couldn't come up with any other way to "raise seed".

Why the ban on black? God couldn't figure out any other way to manage the racism on Earth.

Why command Nephi to kill Laban? God couldn't figure out any other way to have him die.

Why command Moses and Joshua to slaughter the Canaanite children and babies? God couldn't come up with another way.

Why "insert any other horrible thing people did/do in the name of God" and it is because God couldn't figure out any other way.

What silliness!

:-)

~dancer~


I guess god is only "book smart," and not very "people smart."

;)

Great post TD.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_John Larsen
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Post by _John Larsen »

truth dancer wrote:
In his situation, what would I have done? I don't know. Joseph knew that plural marriage could mean his death. And it probably did.


This excuse always makes me shake my head. I call it the "weak God" excuse.

Here, the God of this Universe, you know the one who created it, made galaxies, stars, planet Earth, all of life, the God who helped Moses part the red sea, the God who can change hearts, and perform all sorts of miracles, can't keep Joseph alive if he tells the truth?

I really do not get the "weak God" justification.

It seems a common excuse for everything that is unseemly.

Why polygamy? God couldn't come up with any other way to "raise seed".

Why the ban on black? God couldn't figure out any other way to manage the racism on Earth.

Why command Nephi to kill Laban? God couldn't figure out any other way to have him die.

Why command Moses and Joshua to slaughter the Canaanite children and babies? God couldn't come up with another way.

Why "insert any other horrible thing people did/do in the name of God" and it is because God couldn't figure out any other way.

What silliness!

:-)

~dancer~


There is a much more insidious version of this which is that everything God does is moral and reasonable, but humankind is so immoral that we cannot recognize it. We, like worms, cannot ultimately determine when Gods actions are good (and of course they always are). So only moral thing to do is to suspend your own moral reasoning and follow the Church unquestioningly.
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