Mormon Church, wrong again re masturbation

[_asbestosman]

If it's so terrible to admit it, why do church leaders ask about it in TR interviews?

I think I can answer that. It is all about power. You are required to reveal something that is pitched to you as shameful. You come before the authorities riddled with guilt, and they relieve you of this burden that they essentially created. What better way to establish who is in control?

Yes, that's definitely the correct answer. I completely agree.

I was curious as to how abman would respond to it in light of his reaction to this thread, however.

Masturbation crosses a few boundaries. There is the privacy part (as for many activities some of which are fine), but there is also the sin part. If it weren't for the sin part then it would have no place in the TR interview.

[_silentkid]

Would it be better if I replace pride with value?

Not really.

The problem with pride isn't in valuing something you have or are, but rather in valuing yourself above others or otherwise belittling others. The other problem with pride is thinking that you don't need God (or other people) or forgetting what God (or others) has (have) done in your life.

What is the value in your ability to abstain from coffee or masturbation? It seems to me that it has value to you because you can do something that others can't and/or don't do. I don't see much value in that.

[_Some Schmo]

Would it be better if I replace pride with value?

Not really, because it still doesn't explain the reason behind the value.

The problem with pride isn't in valuing something you have or are, but rather in valuing yourself above others or otherwise belittling others.

Just so we're clear here, I don't think less of you because or your view on masturbation. It may surprise you to know that I actually think quite highly of many of the things you say. I just think your view on this subject is unhealthy.

The other problem with pride is thinking that you don't need God (or other people) or forgetting what God (or others) has (have) done in your life.

How on Earth is it prideful to think you don't need something that you don't believe exists? Are you prideful for feeling like you don't need Santa Claus? After all, you've been providing your kids with presents at xmas time all along, not him.

And if it appears as though I've "forgotten" what god has done for me, that's because he hasn't done anything, at least, not for which he'll take credit. It would be quite the trick for a non-existing entity to pull that off, I should think. If only he'd just quit messing around and actually reveal himself... oh the pain we could avoid. But we know just what a premium god places on pain, don't we? Why mess that up?

I'm not sure how you go from assuming that a person has forgotten "everything god has done for them" to assuming they've forgotten or are ungrateful for the things the actual, verifiable, real people have done. That's quite the majestic leap in logic. But on one thing, I do agree; forgetting what others have done for you is a form of destructive pride. Not sure how it relates to what we've been talking about, however.

[Analytics]

What is the value in your ability to abstain from coffee or masturbation? It seems to me that it has value to you because you can do something that others can't and/or don't do. I don't see much value in that.

I don't feel less good about it if others (even everyone else) also has self-mastery. For example, I value a recovering alcoholic's ability to abstain from alcohol. I value John Nash's ability he had to eventually control himself despite his schizophrenia. I even value a dieter's ability to abstain from junkfood. I value a person't ability to conquer her fears. None of that lessens how I feel about fighting my own challenges. How common or rare it may be is irrelavent to the value I feel in not being a slave to my body.

That I value self-mastery does not mean I do not value those who choose differently. I don't care much for country music, but I'm fine with people who value that. I place a lot of value in mathematics, but I'm fine with people who do not value it as I do. Nevertheless, I greatly value the accomplishments of various mathematicians even if there are no obvious practical applications to their work.

[_asbestosman]

But on one thing, I do agree; forgetting what others have done for you is a form of destructive pride. Not sure how it relates to what we've been talking about, however.

It was on the tangent of the pride issue and President Benson's talk (with most of the ideas from CS Lewis). In the context of that talk, forgetting God is an issue and that's why I brought it up. Since I believe in God it would be relevant to me. I added "(or others)" to make it relevant to you. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[_silentkid]

How common or rare it may be is irrelavent to the value I feel in not being a slave to my body.

I agree with everything you said up until this last part. I don't feel that normal masturbation constitutes being a slave to one's body, anymore than eating does. If one were addicted to it, I could see your point. I don't think anyone here is condoning an addiction, nor is anyone alluding to one.

[_beastie]

Is there anyone who disagrees with these two points?

1. The LDS church has been adamantly anti-masturbation, and has partly defended that by saying it is not “physically necessary”.
2. Studies now show that masturbating more than five times a week reduces the risk of prostrate cancer.

It seems to me that unless folks want to contest one of these two claims, then the issue is settled: the LDS church was wrong about masturbation. Whether or not individuals still find value in abstinence is entirely besides the question.

[_Trevor]

Masturbation crosses a few boundaries.

Which are?

There is the privacy part (as for many activities some of which are fine), but there is also the sin part. If it weren't for the sin part then it would have no place in the TR interview.

And, just where does the idea it is a sin come from? Creative Bible interpretation? Modern revelation? Of course, modern LDS practices are supposed to square with the standard works, so where does modern revelation spell out explicitly that masturbation is a sin?

I think the issue is the one I pointed to: power and control. Instill shame in the youth, and set yourself up as the only relief for that shame. A great way to hook 'em young.

[_asbestosman]

1. The LDS church has been adamantly anti-masturbation, and has partly defended that by saying it is not “physically necessary”.
2. Studies now show that masturbating more than five times a week reduces the risk of prostrate cancer.

I don't disagree with those points. I disagree with the idea that something is necessary in the name of longevity. I consider the necessity of breathing to be quite different than the necessity of avoiding fatty foods. I would guess that masturbation is no more physically necessary than avoiding McDonald's (even though I recommend avoiding fast food).

[_Pokatator]

TMI

The first time I had sex...... I was alone just like I suspect most everyone was.

I did nothing weird like tying myself up before I did it, nor was I a battered masturbator.

In no way, shape or form do I think it was a sin, no matter what the church or my Bishop thinks.