Brother Crockett vs...?

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Coggins7 wrote:
Read Mormon Enigma and/or Mormon Polygamy. The sad tale of Zina Daintha Hunington Jacob Smith Young can be found in both of those books.


According to Zina's own documentary writings, she didn't seem to perceive it as the sad tale you would like to make it. See my post above.



Yes I know she did not. But later letters from Henry seem to indicate he was fairly heart broken over it all. Thus I refer to it as sad tale. I also find it sad that Zina seemed A OK with it.

Maybe I am just weak kneed but Prophet or not, if they made the move on my bride I would have beat the snot out of them. Well Joseph Smith probably would have been able to whoop me but I still would have tried. Guess I would have failed this awful "test."
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Jason wrote:Guess I would have failed this awful "test."


You would have received an A+++ in my book! :)
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The only evidence that would satisfy defenders of the faith would be a videotape of Joseph Smith in bed with these women. And even then they'd probably claim it was doctored.

During the period the LDS church actually WANTED to prove that Joseph Smith married - in very deed - other women (in the dispute with the RLDS), the wives of Joseph Smith said, as plainly as they could while still retaining Victorian sensibilities, that they had sex with their "husband", Joseph Smith. Now, their word isn't good enough.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

This is why these debates are pointless. There is no evidence that defenders of the faith will accept in regards to this point. They'll accept that Joseph Smith had sex with his other plural wives, generally, because it's pretty idiotic to do otherwise. But they draw the line at the polyandrous unions, and insist that, for some reason, THOSE marriages were different.


Well there are a number of reasons for this. First I will readily admit that the more sex in regards to the "normal" plural marriages is less repugnant. At lease he married them and they were committed. But the idea of sex with a wife that is married to someone else is a tough pill to swallow. So sure, believing members that know about this are typically going to find some way to dismiss that sex occurred in the polyandrous relationships and expect evidence for it.

But it is not implausible at all to presume that these may have been some different type of marriage. They were after all eternal only and the women were told to stay living with their for time husbands. One could argue Joseph Smith did this to cover it all up. But I don't think so. I think they really could have been for the eternity only, sealings and not consummated for time marriages.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:The only evidence that would satisfy defenders of the faith would be a videotape of Joseph Smith in bed with these women. And even then they'd probably claim it was doctored.

During the period the LDS church actually WANTED to prove that Joseph Smith married - in very deed - other women (in the dispute with the RLDS), the wives of Joseph Smith said, as plainly as they could while still retaining Victorian sensibilities, that they had sex with their "husband", Joseph Smith. Now, their word isn't good enough.


Did any of the polyandrous wives say this?
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I would think that telling one's daughter that her father was Joseph Smith is the equivalent of saying: I had sex with Joseph Smith.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Yong Xi
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Post by _Yong Xi »

beastie wrote:I would think that telling one's daughter that her father was Joseph Smith is the equivalent of saying: I had sex with Joseph Smith.


Not to mention the difficulty it would cause their husbands.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The fact still remains that Zina was married to BY AT THE SAME TIME as she was married to Henry Jacobs, and she bore BY's son. There is no question that she had sexual relations with BY.

Why are you going off on this tangent? Please answer the original question.

Where did the practice of having sexual relations change between Joseph Smith and BY? If there was no change, then why shouldn't we assume that Joseph Smith was practicing polyandry the same way BY did?


A short trip to FAIR, where some substantive scholarly research has been done on this subject, will suffice to reorient Scotty's attempt at historical analysis:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... r_Men.html

Zina and Henry's marriage fell apart at Mt. Pisgah, and Zina never again lived with him before openly living with Young as his plural wife. It seems all we would now require are the divorce papers, which may or may not be extant somewhere. This, however, is problematic for a number of historical reasons, as Wyatt points out:

One question that often comes up concerning the dissolution of Henry and Zina's marriage is why, if they were legally married, they never procured a legal divorce. Most people who raise this question have no problem with the concept of Joseph and Zina being "married" while Zina was still married to Henry; they typically assume that the marriage to Joseph was a platonic sealing, with no earthly accoutrements that normally attend marriage. The point at which the question inevitably comes up is when Zina married Brigham in the Nauvoo temple, continued to live with Henry during the trek across Iowa, and then transitioned into Brigham's family after Henry left for his mission to England.

There are two points at which a divorce could reasonably have taken place: In Nauvoo, at about the time that Zina and Brigham were married, or in Iowa, after Henry left for England. There is no record of any divorce in Hancock County, Illinois.68 This is not surprising; for the nineteen months from the martyrdom in June 1844 until the Saints were driven from Nauvoo in February 1846, the relationship between the Saints and the various levels of government was tenuous, at best. The Saints did not trust the state or federal governments, having felt betrayed at every turn over the years. There is evidence that the Nauvoo municipal government was very dysfunctional during this period, and then entirely non-existent after the revocation of the Nauvoo Charter in January 1845. A year later, when Zina and Brigham were sealed, it is doubtful that the Saints would have turned to those they viewed as hostile enemies to request divorces.

The situation is even more unclear as the Saints migrated westward through frontier Iowa. According to Iowa territorial law in 1846, divorces were granted by district courts.69 At the time there were only three district courts established in the Iowa Territory, and these covered only the eastern-most counties of the state. 70 There were no District Courts that covered the unincorporated areas (the "Indian lands" where Mt. Pisgah was located), nor were there any in 1846 in any of the counties bordering the unincorporated areas.

Critics who complain of Henry and Zina not having a "legal and lawful" divorce fail to point out what constitutes "legal and lawful" when it comes to a frontier where there is no established government. Who, exactly, should Henry and Zina have gone to in order to satisfy our modern sensibilities of what constitutes a "legal and lawful" dissolution of marriage?

The inaccessibility of government and the hostility of the trail may not be the only reasons why a formal divorce was not sought by Henry and Zina. Many people during the era, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, particularly those who were poor and transient (conditions that certainly applied to this couple), would engage in self-divorce. Rather than seek out the approbation of authority that was often seen as meddlesome, distant, and aloof, couples would simply agree to dissolve their marriage, and then each go their separate ways. This seemed, to those predisposed to distrust a hostile government, a practical and pragmatic solution to ending a marriage, and appears to be the path chosen by Henry and Zina.


So, as you see Scotty, the historical cherry picking, fudging of evidence by greatly oversimplifying complex historical variables, and removing all benefit of the doubt from historical Church leaders a priori stirs up more mud than it settles.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

Coggins7 wrote:So, as you see Scotty, the historical cherry picking, fudging of evidence by greatly oversimplifying complex historical variables, and removing all benefit of the doubt from historical Church leaders a priori stirs up more mud than it settles.


You should tape this to your mirror.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Another interesting case is that of Sarah Ann Whitney. After she married Joseph Smith, he arranged for her to "marry" another man, Joseph Kingsbury. Why?

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/16-SarahAnnWhitney.htm

Sarah Ann Whitney married Joseph Smith in a private ceremony during July of 1842. A revelation through Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann’s father authorized the union: “Verily, thus saith the Lord unto my servant N.K. Whitney, the thing that my servant Joseph Smith has made known unto you and your family and which you have agreed upon is right in mine eyes and shall be rewarded upon your heads with honor and immortality and eternal life to all your house, both old and young...” Sarah Ann’s Mother, Elizabeth wrote, “we were convinced in our own minds that God...approved...we were willing to give our eldest daughter, then only seventeen years of age, to Joseph, in...plural marriage”.

Her father, Newel K. Whitney, performed the ceremony: “You both mutually agree to be each other’s companion so long as you both shall live, preserving yourselves for each other and from all others and also throughout all eternity, reserving only those rights which have been given to my servant Joseph by revelation...If you both agree to covenant and do this, I then give you, S.A. Whitney, my daughter, to Joseph Smith, to be his wife, to observe all the rights between you both that belong to that condition...”

About the time of the marriage, Joseph sent Sarah Ann’s brother, Horace, on a mission. Helen Mar Kimball, another one of Joseph’s plural wives, wrote, “But Joseph feared to disclose it, believing that [others] would embitter Horace against him...and for this reason he favored his going East”.

On August 18th, several weeks after the marriage, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to his new bride and her parents. He was hiding from the law at a home on the outskirts of Nauvoo: “...my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us...it seems, as if I could not live long in this way; and if you three would come and see me...it would afford me great relief...I know it is the will of God that you should comfort me now in this time of affliction...the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty...burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts...You will pardon me for my earnestness on this subject when you consider how lonesome I must be...I think emma wont come tonight if she don't don't fail to come tonight...”

In April of the following year, Sarah Ann publicly married Joseph C. Kingsbury. Kingsbury said of this marriage: “…according to President Joseph Smith[s] Council & others [I] agread to Stand by Sarah Ann Whitney as Supposed to be her husband & had a pretended marriage for the purpose of Bringing about the purposes of God in these last days...”.

After Joseph Smith’s death, Sarah Ann married Apostle Heber C. Kimball, becoming one of his thirty-nine wives. This essentially ended her faux marriage with Kingsbury.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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