For Gaz..Struggling Believers' Polygamy Discussion cont.

[_harmony]

harmony,

Assuming of course he actually existed.

Has your faith slid so far that you are now calling Christ a liar? John 8:56-59

Good heavens, Gaz. Christ never said anything that he's quoted as saying in the New Testament. It was written so long after he died, there's no way anyone could remember the actual words. Only the simple folk believe that he actually said what is written in the scriptures.

Didn't you know that? DCP himself made fun of me, when I quoted what he told the thief on the cross, so I have that information on good authority, ya know.

[_Yoda]

Gaz, that talk you mentioned is one of my favorites from President Maxwell. :)

Unfortunately, it still failed to address my reference request. ;)

Please give me a doctrinal reference that specifically addresses a definitive fact that there will be more righteous women than men in the Celestial Kingdom, AND, that this fact is the primary reason why plural marriage is a required institution in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

[_Brackite]

Gaz, that talk you mentioned is one of my favorites from President Maxwell. :)

Unfortunately, it still failed to address my reference request. ;)

Please give me a doctrinal reference that specifically addresses a definitive fact that there will be more righteous women than men in the Celestial Kingdom, AND, that this fact is the primary reason why plural marriage is a required institution in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

Hi There Liz,

In defense of Gazelam here, I was indeed taught in the Church while growing up, about that how much more spiritual women are than men. I always figured that there would be more women than men in highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, because of the LDS Doctrine of Plural Marriage (Polygamy), and that I was indeed taught that women are much more spiritual than men are. However, I do Not believe that there will be more women than men in the Celestial Kingdom, anymore. There are indeed about 105 boys born for every 100 girls worldwide.
The Following is From About.com:

How many boys are born for every 100 girls?

There are 105 boy babies born for ever 100 girl babies worldwide but scientists haven't determined why this sex ratio is so.


( Link: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/ ... eratio.htm )

[_Yoda]

Thanks for joining the thread, Brackite! :) And thank you for adding the studies.

I had always heard the theory of more women than men as well. But, interestingly, I have never read any official documentation regarding it, have you? That's what I was asking for.

Also, I think that this theory goes against the grain of other doctrine as well. Joseph Smith taught that children who died prior to the age of accountability were automatically exhalted. From many of the studies that Beastie researched, it was clear that the mortality rate of baby boys was much higher than that of girls. Girls are typically strnger in infancy and have a better chance of survival when facing complications.

So, I think there will be plenty of righteous men for righteous women.

Gaz? Comments?

[_truth dancer]

The whole, "women are more spiritual than men" is really all about the male ego...

The guys who say this think they are one of the very few righteous men who are going to get all the women other not-so-righteous men wish they had.

In other words, "there are plenty of great women, but only a few really wonderful guys of which I am one."

;-)

~dancer~

[_Gazelam]

Liz,

I am not aware of any doctrinal statement that declares that more women than men will be saved in the Kingdom of our Father. I should know better than to just state Mormon tradition without basis in scriptural fact. My apologies.

Gaz

P.S. I have that talk from Maxwell, but no notes on where and when the talk was given. Do you have the notes on that?

[_Gazelam]

A note in regards to salvation through the patriarchal order:

As men persue the goal of eternal life, they first enter in at the gate of repentance and baptism, thereby taking upon themselves the name of Christ. They then gain power to become his sons and daughters, to be adopted into his family, to be brethren and sisters in his kingdom. Baptism standing alone does not transform them into family members, but it opens the door to such a blessed relationship; and if men so live as to obtain the Spirit and are in fact born again then they become members of the Holy Family.

Then, if they press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, keeping the commandments and living by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, they qualify for celestial marriage, and this gives them power to become the sons of God, meaning the Father. They thus become joint heirs with Christ who is his natural heir. Those who are sons of God in this sense are the ones who become gods in the world to come. (D&C 76:54-60.) They have exaltaion and godhood because the family unit continues in eternity. (D&C 132:19-24.) (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:474.)

[_Yoda]

Liz,

I am not aware of any doctrinal statement that declares that more women than men will be saved in the Kingdom of our Father. I should know better than to just state Mormon tradition without basis in scriptural fact. My apologies.

Gaz

P.S. I have that talk from Maxwell, but no notes on where and when the talk was given. Do you have the notes on that?

I'll see if I can find it, Gaz. I remember reading it when it first came out. I'm not sure if it was an Ensign article or a conference talk.

Since there is not any scriptural or doctrinal reference for this, I think it is safe to say that the whole concept of women being more righteous than men, and therefore, more women making it to the CK than men, was more than likely a conclusion drawn by LDS men who, themselves, were trying to make sense out of the concept of plural marriage as an eternal law.

You see, my view is that most LDS men, who are good men (and yes, I include you, as well as my husband in this category. ;) ), who are conscientious about keeping the commandments, fulfilling their priesthood role righteously, and who are truly in love with their wives aren't that thrilled with this concept, either. They are desperately trying to make some sort of sense out of it. And, this thought that maybe it has to exist because there will be more women than men in the CK, is, indeed a "grasping at straws" educated guess.

As I have mentioned previously, this is an issue that has haunted me since I learned about it. It has always gone against everything I hold dear regarding the beauty of an eternal family, and partnering with someone you love not only in this life, but the next.

When I have prayed about it, the answer that I have always received is that there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding this issue, and that there will be a lot of people who are surprised at what really occurs in the next life. I have had the distinct feeling that plural marriage is definitely NOT a requirement....that those plural families who are eternally sealed, and wish to remain so, will be honored....However, monogamy will be the "norm", and that the definition of celestial marriage is a temple marriage, PERIOD. In other words, as long as you are sealed to your spouse, that entitles you to all of the blessings associated with the CK.

[_Gazelam]

George Albert Smith, the seventh president of the Church, bore the name of his grandfather, George A. Smith. His grandfather, the youngest Apostle called in this dispensation, eventually served as a counselor to President Brigham Young. George Albert tells of a dream in which he passed to the other side of the veil, doing so with the feeling that his work in mortality was finished. the only person he met in this dream was his grandfather, who, with great earnestness, said: "I would like to know what you have done with my name."

"Everything I had ever done," President Smith said, "passed before me as though it were a flying picture on a screen - everything I had done. Quickly this vivid retrospect came down to the very time I was standing there. My whole life had passed before me. I smiled and looked at my grandfather and said:

"I have never done anything with your name of which you need be ashamed."

"He stepped forward and took me in his arms, and as he did so, I became conscious again of my earthly surroundings. My pillow was as wet as though water had been poured on it - wet with tears of gratitude that I could answer unashamed." (Smith, Sharing the Gospel With Others, p.112.)

It is a law of heaven that we honor our parents and in so doing bring honor to that family of which we are a part. As the day will come when we will be required to give an accounting to them as to what we did with the name they gave us, so the day will come when we will be required to account for the manner in which we bore the name of Christ.

Indeed names are symbols - divinely ordained teaching devices - which mirror the order of heaven and illustrate how the blessings of salvation come. We can no more save ourselves than we can give birth to ourselves. We are granted life in the name of another. We are succored and nurtured in that name. Indeed, it becomes to us the source of love, safety, protection, knoeledge, and power. thus we come to love and honor those whose name we bear, those who have freely given all that they have that we might enjoy like blessings and eventually grant those same blessings to others. Such is the system of salvation: through baptism we are born into the family of Christ, and there we covenant to take and honor his name. As we do so we come to know his love and to have extended to us the blessing of heirship. All of this our Eternal Father has promised us - even the power to create others as we have been created. Such is the doctrine of sacred names.

In His Holy Name, 1988 Bookcraft.

[_Yoda]

It is a law of heaven that we honor our parents and in so doing bring honor to that family of which we are a part. As the day will come when we will be required to give an accounting to them as to what we did with the name they gave us, so the day will come when we will be required to account for the manner in which we bore the name of Christ.

Indeed names are symbols - divinely ordained teaching devices - which mirror the order of heaven and illustrate how the blessings of salvation come. We can no more save ourselves than we can give birth to ourselves. We are granted life in the name of another. We are succored and nurtured in that name. Indeed, it becomes to us the source of love, safety, protection, knoeledge, and power. thus we come to love and honor those whose name we bear, those who have freely given all that they have that we might enjoy like blessings and eventually grant those same blessings to others. Such is the system of salvation: through baptism we are born into the family of Christ, and there we covenant to take and honor his name. As we do so we come to know his love and to have extended to us the blessing of heirship. All of this our Eternal Father has promised us - even the power to create others as we have been created. Such is the doctrine of sacred names.

There is nothing here that cannot be accomplished within a monogamous family unit. ;)