Crockett/Scratch Debate 2: Church Finances

[_rcrocket]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

[_Yoda]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Harmony will, no doubt, chime in on this one. This is her pet peeve. ;)

(Grabbing popcorn)

[_NorthboundZax]

Can only Scratch reply here?

I for one would be interested in you demonstrating the validity of President Hinckley's assertion that the financial information of the church is open to the members. It doesn't seem that way to me. If I ask leadership, I just get shunted aside that we shouldn't question what the Lord does with his money (even though men are spending it!). Maybe so, but I'd still like to see where my donated money has gone - and it looks to me that Pres. Hinckley asserted that I was entitled to the information.

REPORTER (Oct, 2002):
IN MY COUNTRY, THE…WE SAY THE PEOPLE'S CHURCHES, THE PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS, THEY PUBLISH ALL THEIR BUDGETS, TO ALL THE PUBLIC.

HINCKLEY:
YEAH. YEAH.

REPORTER:
WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR CHURCH?

HINCKLEY:
WELL, WE SIMPLY THINK THAT THE…THAT INFORMATION BELONGS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE CONTRIBUTION, AND NOT TO THE WORLD. THAT'S THE ONLY THING. YES.

http://www.mormonchallenge.com/hinckley.htm


Dave at Dave's Mormon Inquiry had an interesting post on the topic a few years ago.
http://mormoninquiry.typepad.com/mormon_inquiry/2004/10/wheres_that_tit.html

The Church does not release financial statements to the general public or even to the general membership, and has not since roughly 1963. That seems a bit unfair to the average members of the Church who contribute all the money. After all, lack of disclosure and oversight is almost always associated with mismanagement and corruption, and I have little doubt that rule applies to the billions of dollars under the control of senior LDS leaders. The internal audits performed by LDS employees keep Bishops from stealing from the tithing pot, but can do little to prevent mismanagement or improper spending by Church executives. It has become painfully clear in recent years how ineffective auditing is at preventing large-scale financial misdeeds even in corporations subject to comprehensive public disclosure laws. It is reasonable to think the risk is even greater in the Church, where so little financial information is disclosed to the public.

Mormons rather naïvely assume much of the money goes to aid the poor, which is wildly inaccurate--only a miniscule proportion goes to "charitable causes." Most of it goes to support the corporate operations of the Church...

How does an interested contributer use President Hinckley's statement of openness to find out where the money is going?

[_Mister Scratch]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Why bother? I stated in the other thread that "suppression" of the Church's financial records is a place where we see "suppression" of history. If you want to argue against that, go right ahead.

[_solomarineris]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Your request debate of this topic is simply beyond reason...shall I say insane.
Right now I am trying to balance my Quick books, I have my bank statement in front of me for reference.
I don't trust anybody, I don't put my faith in my banker nor my vendors.
I want proof, especially if I were to dole out thousands of dollars in the form of tithing.

Looks like your leaders words are good enough for you.
It is your money.

[_rcrocket]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Why bother? I stated in the other thread that "suppression" of the Church's financial records is a place where we see "suppression" of history. If you want to argue against that, go right ahead.

Just as thought. Afraid to debate the topic you DID choose as your favorite. Afraid to state a premise for me to prove or disprove.

You're weak.

You're a coward.

You have no library or substance of knowledge.

You have only rhetoric, by which you anonymously and maliciously disparage other people's reputations.

God knows who you are, my friend.

If you wish to reconsider, state the exact premise about church finances you wish me to prove or disprove.

[_rcrocket]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Your request debate of this topic is simply beyond reason...shall I say insane.
Right now I am trying to balance my Quick books, I have my bank statement in front of me for reference.
I don't trust anybody, I don't put my faith in my banker nor my vendors.
I want proof, especially if I were to dole out thousands of dollars in the form of tithing.

Looks like your leaders words are good enough for you.
It is your money.

Give me a break. Another anonomyte unwilling to debate.

[_GoodK]

The church does not disclose how much GA's are paid. Or how much the Prophet is paid. Why not?

[_cksalmon]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Your request debate of this topic is simply beyond reason...shall I say insane.
Right now I am trying to balance my Quick books, I have my bank statement in front of me for reference.
I don't trust anybody, I don't put my faith in my banker nor my vendors.
I want proof, especially if I were to dole out thousands of dollars in the form of tithing.

Looks like your leaders words are good enough for you.
It is your money.

Give me a break. Another anonomyte unwilling to debate.

Oh, no. A crucial edit has intervened. This response previously stated that you wished the Church would disclose its financial information, but that it had a right not to do so.

I suppose the edit occurred because you realized that your initial response demonstrated, to your satisfaction at least, that the LDS Church does suppress its finances.

What was the premise of the debate again?

Chris

[_Sethbag]

There are some good reasons, where "good" is defined within an LDS worldview, why the LDS Church doesn't disclose financial information.

1) Members don't need to know how the money is spent. They pay tithes not because they support the specific ways in which the money is used; they pay it because God (through men) commanded them to do it. And for no other reason.

2) The LDS Church leaders are God's Annointed. The members didn't choose them, and they are accountable to God, and not to the members.

Those are examples of the kind of logic which justifies the silence on financial topics. Another reason is that nothing good can come from it. If they released fully disclosed financial statements, some people would find reasons, in the data, for disagreeing with the leadership, and finding reasons for disagreement with the leadership is one step on the path to apostasy. Meanwhile, few members seem to care, and the beef over financial statements doesn't seem to be much of a stumbling block for most members, so, the bottom line is this: it's not broke, don't fix it.