Crockett Challenges Scratch to a Debate

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_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

rcrocket wrote:
antishock8 wrote:
rcrocket wrote:
antishock8 wrote:Temple ceremony. Suppressed. Fact. You lose.


The current content of the temple ceremony is known to millions. The various pre-1990 versions of the ceremony is known to tens of thousands.

You know the content.

I win.


Oh, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught to its members via official publication or perhaps provide a URL?


The current version of the ceremony can be learned from attending any temple. What is an URL? U R a Lunatic?


I repeat, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught openly to its members via official publication and available to all, or perhaps provide a hyperlink?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

antishock8 wrote:I repeat, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught openly to its members via official publication and available to all, or perhaps provide a hyperlink?


See above. In addition, Orson Pratt published portions of the endowment in Washington, D.C. in an official Church organ, the Seer.

But, all current and past versions of the endowment are or were "published" and "taught" openly, and "officially" to its members who attended the temple.
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

rcrocket wrote:
antishock8 wrote:
rcrocket wrote:
antishock8 wrote:Temple ceremony. Suppressed. Fact. You lose.


The current content of the temple ceremony is known to millions. The various pre-1990 versions of the ceremony is known to tens of thousands.

You know the content.

I win.


Oh, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught to its members via official publication or perhaps provide a URL?


The current version of the ceremony can be learned from attending any temple. What is an URL? U R a Lunatic?


Information about the present temple ceremony is only available to a limited subset of members of the CoJCoLDS, probably a small minority of those claimed as baptised. These members are forbidden to disclose what they see in the temple.

That is suppression of information about the present state of temple practice.

The CoJCoLDS has nowhere and never published any details about past versions of the temple ceremony, and members are not allowed to do so. That is suppression of information about the history of the temple ceremony.

I am happy for readers of these posts to make up their own minds whether I am right on this point. The fact that you continue vehemently to deny what seem to many to be obvious facts will no doubt lead some readers to draw certain conclusions about you.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Orson Pratt published portions of the ceremony in the Seer. Wanna reference?

The CoJCoLDS has nowhere and never published any details about past versions of the temple ceremony


That is untrue, as well. I have knowledge of the pre-1990 version because I saw it "officially" "published" in the temples. Millions of others saw it as well. That is suppression?
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Yong Xi wrote:
Joseph Fielding Smith was Church Historian. I suppose, you can claim he was not trained in the historical method.


According to scriptural mandate, the Church Historian keeps a record. The mandate does not require him to publish. (That he did publish neither defeats or advances my proposition). Thus, the Historian needs no particular training, although the current Historian, Marlin Jenson and his top lieutenant, Rick Turley, are experts in archival techniques.
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

rcrocket wrote:
antishock8 wrote:I repeat, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught openly to its members via official publication and available to all, or perhaps provide a hyperlink?


See above. In addition, Orson Pratt published portions of the endowment in Washington, D.C. in an official Church organ, the Seer.


CFR on this. What did he say exactly? And you say the Seer was 'an official church organ'? I think some influential people disagree with you on this:

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Is_The%20Se ... ource.html

Many anti-Mormons make extensive use of this publication in framing their accusations against the Church. Many members of the Church have not even heard of this publication, much less are familiar with its origins. The Seer was published in Washington, DC, by Orson Pratt, and he used the publication to provide a printed pulpit for his own ideas and pet speculations. It was never considered official LDS doctrine, nor was it ever published by or endorsed by the Church. Elder B.H. Roberts wrote the following in response to those in his day who were heralding the writings of The Seer as representative of official LDS doctrine:

The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work--the Seer--together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say: "But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."1

The next time you see an anti-Mormon argument, look carefully at what they cite as the sources, if any. There is a good chance their sources will be from The Seer. Interestingly, they almost never use official sources of LDS doctrine to level their accusations.


rcrocket wrote:But, all current and past versions of the endowment are or were "published" and "taught" openly, and "officially" to its members who attended the temple.


You might just as well claim that Al Qaeda's plans for its next terrorist attack are or were "published" and "taught" openly, and "officially" to its members who attended the meeting with Osama Bin Laden at which they were planned.

[Note for the mentally challenged: there is no intent in this comparison to suggest that the CoJCoLDS is a criminal or terrorist organisation.]
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

I think you guys need to debate what 'suppress' means. No one's gonna get anywhere till you agree on that.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

Who Knows wrote:I think you guys need to debate what 'suppress' means. No one's gonna get anywhere till you agree on that.


It is not necessary for lawyer Crockett and me to agree on anything.

We can each make our case, and then we can leave it to the readers to judge which of us is using words in their normal sense, and which of us has made a better case.
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

rcrocket wrote:
antishock8 wrote:I repeat, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught openly to its members via official publication and available to all, or perhaps provide a hyperlink?


See above. In addition, Orson Pratt published portions of the endowment in Washington, D.C. in an official Church organ, the Seer.

But, all current and past versions of the endowment are or were "published" and "taught" openly, and "officially" to its members who attended the temple.


I repeat:

I repeat, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught openly to its members via official publication and available to all, or perhaps provide a hyperlink?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Perhaps Bob could tell us how many people he thinks went through the temple after the 1990 changes knowing what the ceremony entailed before the changes?

How many members who have gone through the temple since, say 1950, knew about the Oath of Vengeance before entering the temple?

If they didn't know, why didn't they know?
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
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