Crockett Challenges Scratch to a Debate

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Thus, the Historian needs no particular training, although the current Historian, Marlin Jenson and his top lieutenant, Rick Turley, are experts in archival techniques.

Really? I thought both were lawyers?

[_rcrocket]

Thus, the Historian needs no particular training, although the current Historian, Marlin Jenson and his top lieutenant, Rick Turley, are experts in archival techniques.

Really? I thought both were lawyers?

I know them both. Turley hasn't been a lawyer for a long time, and has gone through much training on archival techniques and is a national expert.

Elder Jensen is a general authority and as such is an administrator, but he attends and speaks at panels on archival techniques.

[_Mister Scratch]

Do you, Rollo, really subscribe to Scratch's view that the Church is suppressing knowledge of the facsimiles?

Not anymore, because they're already out there. I do believe the Church has wanted to suppress materials, only to have to fess up and address (or "spin") them once they are leaked by another source (I.e., the Salamander letter, the facsimiles obtained by sources other than the Church, etc.). So often the Church is reactive to its history, which gives the sense the Church would rather suppress than disclose.

Rollo---

What is your take on the very stringent barriers to accessing Book of Abraham materials as outlined by John Gee in his most recent FARMS article?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

What is your take on the very stringent barriers to accessing Book of Abraham materials as outlined by John Gee in his most recent FARMS article?

I agree with you it is a form of suppression -- certainly an effort to chill any scholar's desire to see the originals. I think the Book of Abraham controversy is among the most feared by the Brethren, because no matter how hard the apologists try, no explanation seems to work. So, the Brethren have essentially cut off access to minimize their losses. Yes, the Church disclosed colored pics in the 60's (under duress, in my opinion, and probably not really knowing what the papyri showed), but has 'circled the wagons' on the issue ever since, in my opinion. I'm sure the Brethren wished that they had just buried the papyri in the 1st Presidency vault when they had the chance (like GBH tried to do with the Salamander Letter).

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Elder Jensen is a general authority and as such is an administrator, but he attends and speaks at panels on archival techniques.

So that makes him an "expert" in archival techniques?

[_Scottie]

Perhaps Bob could tell us how many people he thinks went through the temple after the 1990 changes knowing what the ceremony entailed before the changes?

How many members who have gone through the temple since, say 1950, knew about the Oath of Vengeance before entering the temple?

If they didn't know, why didn't they know?

The pre-1990 temple ritual, for whatever reason, flipped the "HOLY SH**!!! I belong to a cult!" switch in my brain. This was the beginning of the end for me.

[_antishock8]

Bob,

I repeat:

I repeat:

I repeat, would you then point me in the direction of all the different temple ceremonies, rites, and rituals published by the LDS church and taught openly to its members via official publication and available to all, or perhaps provide a hyperlink?

[_cksalmon]

Orson Pratt published portions of the ceremony in the Seer. Wanna reference?

The CoJCoLDS has nowhere and never published any details about past versions of the temple ceremony

That is untrue, as well. I have knowledge of the pre-1990 version because I saw it "officially" "published" in the temples. Millions of others saw it as well. That is suppression?

That's quite a loose interpretation of "publication."

I officially published dinner in the kitchen last night.

Of course Temple-worthy LDS who do work in the Temple have access to the ceremony. But, that's not at all what's at question, as you are no doubt aware.

"Orson Pratt published portions?" You mean in the mid-nineteenth century?

Chris

[_rcrocket]

Oh. So you think "publish" means a written material? Don't you want to consult a dictionary before challenging me on a word like that?

"Orson Pratt published portions?" You mean in the mid-nineteenth century?

Yet another thinly-read critic of the Church. You're off my radar screen.

[_beastie]

You're off my radar screen.

crocket's new method for extracting himself from debates he's clearly lost