Faith in another person's imagination.

[_karl61]

Recently as I have read books or articles from Bible scholars and I have come across some interesting sentences or thoughts: they say things such as the Gospelers presentation of Jesus or another thought was Christian imagination. This is something one never heard in the LDS church. I find it attractive because it allows room for another thought, one that may be different. It does seem that a lot of what is presented in Church is based on someones imagination and now those that come after need to have faith or uphold the previous person's imagination. It seems like a big burden to those that come after.

Here is passage from the Bible Archeology Society library about the suffering servant by John J. Collins:

The “suffering servant” is described in four passages in the Book of Isaiah, in the part of the book (chapters 40–66) that scholars call Second Isaiah or deutero-Isaiah because it does not come from the eighth-century B.C.E. prophet Isaiah, but was written after the Babylonian Exile in the, sixth century. There are four servant poems: Isaiah 42:1–7, 49:1–6, 50:4–9 and 52:13–53:12. The last of these is the most important. It describes a figure who
“was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity … he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases … he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities … he was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people” (New Revised Standard Version).
Scholars still debate whether the prophet had an individual person in mind, or whether he intended the servant as a personification of Israel. Jewish tradition understands the servant as Israel. Early Christians, however, regarded the passage as a striking prediction of the passion and death of Jesus. Paul handed on the teaching that he had himself received—that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3). The association of Isaiah 53 with the passion of Jesus in popular Christian imagination was vividly expressed in Handel’s oratorio The Messiah. There is no evidence, however (at least before the publication of this Dead Sea Scroll), that Jews at the time of Jesus regarded Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of the Messiah.

again the word Christian imagination is used and it's actually a term that appears accurate (in my opinion) when discussing faith based topics - it's based on the writings or thoughts of someone's imagination.

[_Gadianton]

Hey tumult,

I thought your post deserved a response. Many, many years ago I also read Bible scholars, and it was one of the key imputs towards me leaving the church. I just couldn't even comprehend the kind of mind at work when I'd read a devout testimony of Jesus in the forward, and then go on to read a piece-by-piece dismantel of everything I was taught to believe in.

[_karl61]

thanks Gadianton for the response: I definitely would recommend this Bible archeology society site with it's library. It's a great resource. The scholars that write there are very established and very simple and are easy to understand. They show how these people in Judah were writing to the people of their time; any suggestions that they were giving prophecies about people in the united states 2500 years later in Zion is something created in the imagination of the person in the united states. I would recommend paying the fifty dollars to get access to that library and scholarly writings. I am amazed. I was reading one article the other day where the author argued that not all rich jews were taken to Babylon and there was a small community and some of Nehemiah and Isaiah in chapter 60's were written by those who did not leave but were left behind. Tombs are being uncovered to show that during the exile that Jews lived in Jerusalem and they were rich and likely wrote some lamentations, like Nehemiah chapter 9.

[_huckelberry]

they say things such as the Gospelers presentation of Jesus or another thought was Christian imagination. This is something one never heard in the LDS church. I find it attractive because it allows room for another thought,
Here is passage from the Bible Archeology Society library about the suffering servant by John J. Collins:

The “suffering servant” is described in four passages in the Book of Isaiah, .....
The association of Isaiah 53 with the passion of Jesus in popular Christian imagination was vividly expressed in Handel’s oratorio The Messiah. There is no evidence, however (at least before the publication of this Dead Sea Scroll), that Jews at the time of Jesus regarded Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of the Messiah.

again the word Christian imagination is used and it's actually a term that appears accurate (in my opinion) when discussing faith based topics - it's based on the writings or thoughts of someone's imagination.

Tumult . I abbreviated your quote to items I thought could be looked at again. Hope you do not mind.
My first thought was wondering if there was any reason why I as a Christian believer should be concerned whether Jews thought of this a a Messianic prophecy. I think the story in the gospels indicate that the Jews were not thinking of the suffering servant as messianic. It was Jesus who was proposing it to be and many Jews did not buy into the idea.

I think it is kind of interesting to consider the possiblity that the meaning to the poem in the book of Isaiah can take on different means in different readings and by different people. Well it shouldn't be suprising. I know of no poetry which does not do this. But then sometimes we forget that when something gets called prophecy. What if prophecy means words outside of the normal human communication ambiguities which are pure communication for God. Communication which because divine can have only one meaning. Well wonder that but what if it just doesn't. Instead it means different things at different times and to different people.

I thought for a moment that you were going to seize on the word imagination as an opening to seeing the religious thought process as one open to being renewed by people instead of slavishly following the mistakes of previous people. I usually think the role of imagination means that we use our own mind and understanding in conjunction with people who lived before. Just as Handel uses his imagination to understand the story of Jesus we do the same today.

After all it is the use of imagination which makes it possible to understand any event. We have no access to the event itself no matter how real it was or was not. It is only our imagination which can open any door to experience.

This role of imagination applies to events today which we think about. We must use our imagination to understand today just as we must use imagination to understand yesterday.