MA&D's passionate love affair with the FLDS church

[_mbeesley]

As MBeesley's comment demonstrates, many refuse to believe there is abuse going on because as he says, "I have not seen any evidence of abuse". How do you counter that? This is what I've had to deal with on the FLDS threads...people who insist the abuse is only allegations, there is no proof. But from "allegations" comes investigation and "proof" will only come thorough investigation. If authorities in Texas don't continue their investigation, the FLDS will just retreat further from the scrutiny of the law and there will be no hope for the next generation.

And this is the kind of thing I have to deal wih in people are seemingly ignorant about the law, about probable cause, about unwarranted intrusions into peoples lives based on mere suspicion, etc. Cut the crap A.I. and quit twisting the arguments. Dr. Shades' twisting is enough for this thread.

[_Chap]

As MBeesley's comment demonstrates, many refuse to believe there is abuse going on because as he says, "I have not seen any evidence of abuse". How do you counter that? This is what I've had to deal with on the FLDS threads...people who insist the abuse is only allegations, there is no proof. But from "allegations" comes investigation and "proof" will only come thorough investigation. If authorities in Texas don't continue their investigation, the FLDS will just retreat further from the scrutiny of the law and there will be no hope for the next generation.

And this is the kind of thing I have to deal wih in people are seemingly ignorant about the law, about probable cause, about unwarranted intrusions into peoples lives based on mere suspicion, etc. Cut the crap A.I. and quit twisting the arguments. Dr. Shades' twisting is enough for this thread.

May we, for the moment separate:

1. What ought to happen in a court of law - where we all agree that decisions should be made on the evidence admissible and presented to the court, and on the law as it stands.

2. Our practical judgment, made on a common-sense everyday basis, such as we might apply to our own family affairs.

Taking the second option for the moment (the lawyers and judges will deal with the first), do you think that it is on the balance of probabilities more likely than not that serious abuse of minors took place in the Fundamentalist Latter day Saints' ranch compound on a habitual basis?

[_Sethbag]

So, to all the MA&Dites reading this, I ask you: Which is it? Is the FLDS church an apostate sect of Mormonism, or isn't it? Are they completely unrelated to your own church, or aren't they? Do you disagree with their marital practices, or don't you? Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

I think for many members, at least those who are educated about polygamy and the way the federal government targeted the LDS Church in the 19th century this clearly rings close to home. Thus the defense. If the government does this now who or what is next, at least that is what some think. One wonders if they would have defended the raid agains the Koresh sect with such fervor as well

It's ironic then, isn't it, that the LDS church is so fervent in pursuing governmental bans on gay marriage? Back in the mid to late 1800s most Americans, on religious and moral grounds, thought the peculiar LDS form of marriage was wrong and banned it, and we screamed bloody murder. Now we're doing it to someone else. And the MADites and other LDS who defend the FLDS in this way completely miss the irony.

[_Sethbag]

As MBeesley's comment demonstrates, many refuse to believe there is abuse going on because as he says, "I have not seen any evidence of abuse". How do you counter that? This is what I've had to deal with on the FLDS threads...people who insist the abuse is only allegations, there is no proof. But from "allegations" comes investigation and "proof" will only come thorough investigation. If authorities in Texas don't continue their investigation, the FLDS will just retreat further from the scrutiny of the law and there will be no hope for the next generation.

And this is the kind of thing I have to deal wih in people are seemingly ignorant about the law, about probable cause, about unwarranted intrusions into peoples lives based on mere suspicion, etc. Cut the crap A.I. and quit twisting the arguments. Dr. Shades' twisting is enough for this thread.

Beesley, do you accept:

1) that the phone calls to the abuse shelter (not known by the state, at the time, to be a hoax, and not even 100% certainly all hoaxes even now) constituted sufficient probable cause for the state CPS to enter the compound looking for "Sarah Jessop Barlow"?

2) that, once in the compound, two or three dozen pregnant young teenaged girls constituted probable cause to suspect that statutory rape had gone on, and that a large number of girls were affected by it?

3) that, based on statements by people, including children, in the compound, that no age was too young for a girl to be married, it was clear that this was part of a pattern and practice that was widespread amongst the FLDS community?

Do you agree or disagree with these questions? If you disagree, please tell us why.

[_asbestosman]

And this is the kind of thing I have to deal wih in people are seemingly ignorant about the law, about probable cause, about unwarranted intrusions into peoples lives based on mere suspicion, etc.

It was mentioned in the paper that apparently due process, etc. take a back seat when children may be in danger. I had not seen that point adressed by those who oppose the way Texas has handled this.

[_truth dancer]

OK, I'm thinking some folks do not understand how CPS works...

They do not wait until there is a trial and parents are found guilty of abuse before you remove children out of a home where there is evidence of abuse.

It seems like some folks think CPS workers should leave children in a, most likely abusive home until after a trial... are you kidding?

Can you imagine how this would play out?

A child is brought to the hospital nearly dead with all sorts of cigarette burns, broken bones, and bruises and they are returned to the parents to await trial?

I don't think so.

CPS doesn't have to wait until parents are PROVEN guilty to save and rescue children; so long as there is sufficient evidence to suspect a child is in danger they are protected, as it should be.

Going to a home/compound and seeing even one underage pregnant child, a suspected victim of rape by an older man in the home is plenty enough evidence to remove children from the home. In the case of the FLDS where the adults and children lie, mislead, and deceive CPS workers so no one is certain which children belong to which parents, who is married to whom, and who lives in which homes/dorms, CPS had no choice but to remove the children until they can sort it all out.

If a child tells me she was abused by her father and I have no reason to believe she is lying, I am duty bound to contact CPS. Am I totally 100% sure she has been abused? Nope. Might the information be considered a rumor started by the child? Yep. Will CPS check it out? ABSOLUTELY! How ridiculous to suggest CPS should not check on or remove children (in the case of evidence), with only rumors or accusations of abuse.

Again, CPS does not have to wait for a trial and conviction to remove children from a home where there is evidence of abuse.
~dancer~

[_Jersey Girl]

Steve Benson made a post over on RFM about the authorities releasing evidences. I can't post a link to his thread from RFM but here's a link to the evidences that were released. This in now way, should be considered the only evidence. They are images of WJ and his child brides. If the thought of that doesn't disturb you, I think the pictures will.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html

[_Yoda]

Steve Benson made a post over on RFM about the authorities releasing evidences. I can't post a link to his thread from RFM but here's a link to the evidences that were released. This in now way, should be considered the only evidence. They are images of WJ and his child brides. If the thought of that doesn't disturb you, I think the pictures will.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html

OMG! Those pictures made me physically ill. I hope that man is set loose in general population in jail. Let them have at it. What's left of him can burn in hell.

[_Jersey Girl]

Steve Benson made a post over on RFM about the authorities releasing evidences. I can't post a link to his thread from RFM but here's a link to the evidences that were released. This in now way, should be considered the only evidence. They are images of WJ and his child brides. If the thought of that doesn't disturb you, I think the pictures will.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html

OMG! Those pictures made me physically ill. I hope that man is set loose in general population in jail. Let them have at it. What's left of him can burn in hell.

Ditto on the physically ill, Liz. I was thinking about posting that last evening but honestly, it is so unseemly because you see children who are being compromised in a number of ways, that I didn't want to be responsible for posting it here.

When people claim that the authorities removed the children based on a hunch or whatever, they need to see things like those photos which is why, I assume, the authorities released them recently.

[_Yoda]

I have ZERO TOLERANCE for sexual abuse of children.