Noah's Ark & The Global Flood

[_The Nehor]

I really can't see how anyone can read the Genesis description in the plain and grammatical sense without seeing the clear implication that "God"'s intention in loosing the flood on the earth was to destroy everything alive on it:

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark

.

The whole text is clearly posited on the idea of a universal deluge - which is how it was interpreted for many centuries until it became clear how contrary to all science and common sense that notion is.

Oh, of course believe what you like. Just don't try to get the rest of us to believe that you are doing so on any principled basis of Biblical interpretation (unless it is a principle that every mode of interpretation that gets the CoJCoLDS off the hook is legitimate).

Gen.7
[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
[2] Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
[3] Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
[5] And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
[6] And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
[7] And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
[8] Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
[9] There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
[10] And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
[12] And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
[13] In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
[14] They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
[15] And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
[16] And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
[24] And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Yes, but where did the story in Genesis come from? An account by Noah or God himself? From Noah's vantage point that might be accurate but from God not so much if it were a local flood.

[_bcspace]

Quit lying bcspace. Your own Prophet, JFS stated that the WHOLE WORLD was flooded in order to baptize it.

You and your apologistic ILK twist and convolute your own doctrine in order to make yourselves feel better.

Not at all. I freely admit that the flood being global is official LDS doctrine.

But according to your so-called "Read the First Bullet Point" in your tag - it basically says that your Cult can say whatever it wants, whenever it wants, and if something is no longer applicable or favorable, well, then they reserve the right to simply change it, white wash it, lie about it, convolute it or even erase it.

Not at all. What it does do is pin down what is doctrine and where it is found. I see you have failed to take advantage of such a gift in debating with LDS persons.

The reason I personally believe it valid to postulate other Flood theories is because of the aforementioned lack of detail in the scriptures and the seeming lack of modern revelation on the subject. What I think we do have are the prophets simply reiterating what the scriptures say and without further revelation from God, we have to take those scriptures at face value for the time being.

[_bcspace]

I really can't see how anyone can read the Genesis description in the plain and grammatical sense without seeing the clear implication that "God"'s intention in loosing the flood on the earth was to destroy everything alive on it:

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground,

What ground?

The whole text is clearly posited on the idea of a universal deluge - which is how it was interpreted for many centuries until it became clear how contrary to all science and common sense that notion is.

Sure. What's wrong with that? It then becomes clear that a catastrophic event occured which was intepreted by later generations to be world-wide or greater than it was.

[_Jersey Girl]

I really can't see how anyone can read the Genesis description in the plain and grammatical sense without seeing the clear implication that "God"'s intention in loosing the flood on the earth was to destroy everything alive on it:

Because, Chap, you read it from the perspective of those who were allegedly involved in it.

Tell me, what you think the concept of the earth was in ancient days? Did those telling the story know that California existed? Did they know that ANYTHING existed outside the ground covered by their tribal wanderings?

It is wrongheaded and unwise to attempt to interpret or read scripture outside of it's historical and cultural context.

How do you justify doing so?

[_Chap]

The Nehor:

Yes, but where did the story in Genesis come from? An account by Noah or God himself?

The story is just an ancient Near Eastern legend, with no basis in history or archeology, except that there were no doubt floods from time to time. However since some people believe Genesis is scripture of some kind, they have to find some way of saying it is not utter nonsense.

From Noah's vantage point that might be accurate but from God not so much if it were a local flood.

Your "the story might have been from Noah" theory has a number of disadvantages:

1. Noah (a prophet, no?) has no idea what God is really up to, despite reporting talking direct to the said deity, who (according to Noah) says (Genesis 6):

[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
[14] Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
[15] And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
[16] A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

You just can't trust these prophet chappies can you? Always misunderstanding.

2. Noah (who would have noticed) said that even the mountains and high hills were covered 15 cubits deep. That sure ain't local. According to Noah, the ark ended up on top of Mount Ararat:

Genesis 8 [4] And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Senator, I know local floods. I have been in one. That is not a local flood.

3. And finally, don't you think that even if Noah had believed (wrongly) in a universal flood while in the ark, he might have noticed his mistake when undrowned people from all over turned up and said "Hi Noah! You've had a bit of a flood where you live, I hear. How are you doing?"

[_Jersey Girl]

Sure. What's wrong with that? It then becomes clear that a catastrophic event occured which was intepreted by later generations to be world-wide or greater than it was.

Exactly my take, bcspace. Having participated in more than my fair share of flood threads, let me prepare you for the next round of challenges. You're going to be asked why Jesus referred to the flood in the New Testament.

Been there, done that.

If you like, I can post the response to that right now or let you do the responding.

Jersey Girl
;-)

[Guest]

What do cinepro's six questions have to do with anything stated by bcspace thus far?

They disprove bcspace's assumptions via the teachings of bcspace's own church.

I didn't see that bcspace was defending or promoting church teachings. How can cinepro possible "disprove" bcspaces assumptions (which are based on the work of credible geologists) using church teachings as "proof"?

Are you saying that cinepro is proving Genesis and if so, when he does so successfully will you alert me to the posts?

The issue of local/global/mythical flood isn't just "Potayto/ Potahto" thing. The whole point is that the story if Noah's ark is supposed to mean something. There is supposed to be a message. And for the last 178 years, LDS leaders have told us over, and over, and over what that message is, even up to this day:

Because of the people’s wickedness, the Lord declares that he will destroy all flesh from the earth (Moses 8:26–30; Genesis 6:5–13).

The Lord commands Noah to build an ark and take his family and two of every living thing into it (Genesis 6:14–22; 7:1–10).

It rains for 40 days and 40 nights (7:11–12). All people and creatures that are not on the ark die (7:13–24).

“Noah … Prepared an Ark to the Saving of His House” LDS Sunday School Class Member Study Guide

But most critically, here is the covenant God made with Noah and his posterity:

Genesis 9

8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

(Emphasis added)

If God was referring to a localized flood, then every time there is a rain-caused flood that kills people and animals, He is breaking His covenant.



The most explicit statement of the Church's position can be found in the CES manuals. These are college level manuals for adults which go into the most detail in explaining scriptural stories. I can understand teaching primary kids a simplified story of "Noah and the Ark", but even in the most extreme case of "Milk before Meat", certainly adults taking a college-level class on the Old Testament would be ready to hear the truth about the flood, right?

“. . . The Lord decreed that [the earth would be cleansed] by water, a worldwide deluge. Therefore, from among his premortal spirit children, God chose another great individual—His third in line, Gabriel— to resume the propagation of mankind following the flood.” (Mark E. Petersen, Noah and the Flood [1982], 1–4.)

CES Old Testament Manual

(4-15) Genesis 7:19. How Could the Flood Cover the Entire Earth, Including Mountains? What Was the
Significance of This Immersion?

“I would like to know by what known law the immersion of the globe could be accomplished. It is explained here in a few words: ‘The windows of heaven were opened’ that is, the waters that exist throughout the space surrounding the earth from whence come these clouds from which the rain descends. That was one cause. Another cause was ‘the fountains of the great deep were broken up’—that is something beyond the oceans, something outside of the seas, some reservoirs of which we have no knowledge, were made to contribute to this event, and the waters were let loose by the hand and by the power of God; for God said He would bring a flood upon the earth and He brought it, but He had to let loose the fountains of the great deep, and pour out the waters from there, and when the flood commenced to subside, we are told ‘that the fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained, and the waters returned from off the earth.’ Where did they go to? From whence they came. Now, I will show you something else on the back of that. Some people talk very philosophically about tidal waves coming along. But the question is—How could you get a tidal wave out of the Pacific ocean, say, to cover the Sierra Nevadas? But the Bible does not tell us it was a tidal wave. It simply tells that ‘all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered. Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.’ That is, the earth was immersed. It was a period of baptism.” (John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 26:74–75.)

Orson Pratt declared:

“The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of the earth were washed away. As it came forth from the ocean floor, like the new-born child, it was innocent; it rose to newness of life. It was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocence of this first creation.” (In Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20.)

“The earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon” (Brigham Young, in Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20).

(4-19) The Rainbow as a Token of the Covenant
The following sources shed additional light on the rainbow and the covenant it is meant to signify.

“And I will establish my covenant with you, which I made unto Enoch, concerning the remnants of your
posterity.

“And God made a covenant with Noah, and said, This shall be the token of the covenant I make between me and you, and for every living creature with you, for perpetual generations;
“I will set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. “And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember my covenant, which I have made between me and you, for every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

“And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.
“And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;
“And the general assembly of the church of the first-born shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.
“And the bow shall be in the cloud, and I will establish my covenant unto thee, which I have made between me and thee, for every living creature of all flesh that shall be upon the earth. “And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and thee; for all flesh that shall be upon the earth.” (JST, Genesis 9:17–25.)

“The Lord hath set the bow in the cloud for a sign that while it shall be seen, seed time and harvest, summer and winter shall not fail; but when it shall disappear, woe to that generation, for behold the end cometh quickly” (Smith, Teachings, p. 305).

“I have asked of the Lord concerning His coming; and while asking the Lord, He gave a sign and said, ‘In the days of Noah I set a bow in the heavens as a sign and token that in any year that the bow should be seen the Lord would not come; but there should be seed time and harvest during that year: but whenever you see the bow withdrawn, it shall be a token that there shall be famine, pestilence, and great distress among the nations, and that the coming of the Messiah is not far distant’” (Smith, Teachings, pp. 340–41).

And in case that wasn't enough for you, here's a bonus teaching from the CES manual:

(4-22) Genesis 10:25. Was the Earth Divided in the Days of Peleg?

“The dividing of the earth was not an act of division by the inhabitants of the earth by tribes and peoples, but a breaking asunder of the continents, thus dividing the land surface and creating the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere. By looking at a wall map of the world, you will discover how the land surface along the northern and southern coast of the American Hemisphere and Europe and Africa has the appearance of having been together at one time. Of course, there have been many changes on the earth’s surface since the beginning. We are informed by revelation that the time will come when this condition will be changed and that the land surface of the earth will come back again as it was in the beginning and all be in one place. This is definitely stated in the Doctrine and Covenants.

[D&C 133:18–20 is then cited.]” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5:73–74.)

Obviously I have no problem with people not believing in a global flood. But I think it is dishonest to pretend that they are not lobotomizing an official doctrine (found in the scriptures, consistently and currently interpreted and clarified by apostles and prophets in a uniform manner).

[_bcspace]

You just can't trust these prophet chappies can you? Always misunderstanding.

All flesh relative to what? The earth? The ground? If you had studied the Hebrew word usage here you would know that these words mean anything from a small locality in the vicinity all the way up to the whole earth as you are understanding it.

2. Noah (who would have noticed) said that even the mountains and high hills were covered 15 cubits deep. That sure ain't local. According to Noah, the ark ended up on top of Mount Ararat:

Which mountains and hills? Which Ararat? The traditional one?

[_Chap]

I really can't see how anyone can read the Genesis description in the plain and grammatical sense without seeing the clear implication that "God"'s intention in loosing the flood on the earth was to destroy everything alive on it:

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground,

What ground?

The 'ground' referred to in Genesis 7 verse 23:

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Do you have a problem with the original scripture, or with the translation .... or did you just not realise I was quoting the Bible. Don't you read the Bible much?

The whole text is clearly posited on the idea of a universal deluge - which is how it was interpreted for many centuries until it became clear how contrary to all science and common sense that notion is.

Sure. What's wrong with that? It then becomes clear that a catastrophic event occured which was intepreted by later generations to be world-wide or greater than it was.

No it didn't. It became clear that the story was a mere legend, based on the experience of ordinary floods, but wildly exaggerated into a divinely motivated destruction of all living things by a universal deluge. Why do you feel entitled to believe there is ANY truth in the story at all, apart from the fact tha floods sometimes happen, and they sometimes drown people (something we don't need the Bible to tell us)?

[_Inconceivable]

Anyone ever wasted their time factoring in poo-per-day?

Not sure where I'd rather take my chances;

flood outside or mudslides in darkness inside?


bc,

your silly theory bears a striking resemblance to the odor of the ark on days 1 and 60.

Don't light a match unless you want to rewrite history.

It's not his theory, Inc. It's Pitman and Ryan's. Care to explain why you think it's "silly"? Keep in mind that what you're going to attempt to do is disprove/discredit a "silly theory" developed by two Columbia U. geologists.

Okay. Go for it.

As Infymus accurately noted, modern Mormon prophets have testified that the entire earth was baptised in water (just as the earth will be burned akin to baptism by fire).

"Everything drowned but the fish and the crap in the poo bomb (ark)" - Gordon B. Hinkley

(- or something like that)

This ends any further speculation from a true follower of Mormon prophets (a TBM), like bcspace.

Pitman and whoever's theory is a non-issue in this light (or darkness whatever).


Jersey Girl, tell me what you really think.