God, How Does He Feel To You?

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Thought I'd resurrect this one again since the same topic was derailing another thread.
He did not believe in a personal god.

Right. I have always said this.
He did not believe in a "will or goal" outside the human sphere.

He clearly didn't mean this in any atheistic "there is no purpose to life" manner. This statement was in the context of a response to a Jewish Rabbi arguing about theology.
And yet, according to you, he's closer to traditional theism??

Closer than atheism, yes. You seem to have a habit of omitting pertinent phrases from my statements to serve your little put-down jabs. Here is what I said, "...he was much closer to traditional theism than he ever was to any form of atheism."

You quoted it, but somehow managed to ignore the entire second half the sentence! This is why arguing with you is pointless. You don't seem to really care what you opponent's argument really is.

Unbelievable. There's nothing else I can say. Unbelievable.


The feeling is mutual I'm sure.

By the way, you seem to think that by failing to identify any qualities or attributes of Einstein's "God," that this somehow works in favor of the atheist. Well, according to Einstein we can be sure he believed God is an intelligent spirit, a "superior reasoning power," who is responsible for creating the universe and writing its laws.

That is what virtually every traditional religion believes as well. And what's the atheistic take? Oh yea, it doesn't have a God with any qualities. That is why he is much closer to traditional theism than atheism. This much should be obvious, but I understand it makes Hitchens and Dawkins look like babbling fools.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Tell me, Kevin, how can a "divine intelligence" who created the world be without "goal or will"?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Tell me, Kevin, how can a "divine intelligence" who created the world be without "goal or will"?


It can't. Which means one must run to context to figure out what was meant.

We know Einstein believed in a being that he felt appropriate to call God, and that it is a "superior reasoning power" - even a "spirit" - that wrote the laws of the universe with precision. That in and of itself refutes the idea that no will or goal is involved. I can see why you would want to focus on this statement. Perhaps Einstein was trying to tell the Rabbi that God had no goal or will for humanity? I don't know exactly. Maybe his views changed? (This statement comes from a much earlier time than the others) I don't know. It is clear he was arguing with a Jew about Jewish concept of a personal God.

What I do know is that this is a single ambiguous statement telling us what he didn't believe and that there are other unambiguous statements that make it perfectly clear what he did believe.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Flew notes that the "progenitors of quantum physics, the other great scientific discovery of modern times, Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Paul Dirac, have all made similar statements."

Schrödinger developed wave mechanics, and he said:

"The scientific picture of the world around me is very deficient. It gives me a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but is ghastly silent about all that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell a word about the sensation of red and blue, bitter and sweet, feelings of delight and sorrow. It knows nothing of beauty and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.

Science is reticent too when it is a question of the great Unity of which we somehow form a part, to which we belong. The most popular name for it in our time is God, with a capital G. Science is, very usually, branded as being atheistic. After what we have said this is not astonishing. If its world picture does not even contain beauty, delight, sorrow, if personality is cut out of it by agreement, how should it contain the most sublime idea that presents itself to the human mind."

Max Planck first introduced the quantum hypothesis. He said:

"There can never be any real opposition between religion and science; for the one is the compliment of the other... Religion and natural science are fighting a joint battle in an incessant, never relaxing crusade against skepticism and against dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition... [and therefore] 'On to God!'"

Paul Dirac who was responsible for a third formulation of quantum theory, said:

"God is a mathematician of a very high order and he used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe."

Sounds a lot like Darwin:

"Reason tells me of the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capability of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist."
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

I've stated this before but ill repeat it for this thread.

The Holy Ghost is God, and the common words we find in the scriptures to describe his promptings are "Peace and Joy". That is the testimony we have of the prophets.

As for myself, the standout time was like being filled with light while being wrapped in a soft warm blanket. All other times since then have been like a taste of that. (Church lessons, sacrament meeting talks, confirmation of prayers, edification while studying scripture, etc....)
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

It can't. Which means one must run to context to figure out what was meant.

We know Einstein believed in a being that he felt appropriate to call God, and that it is a "superior reasoning power" - even a "spirit" - that wrote the laws of the universe with precision. That in and of itself refutes the idea that no will or goal is involved. I can see why you would want to focus on this statement. Perhaps Einstein was trying to tell the Rabbi that God had no goal or will for humanity? I don't know exactly. Maybe his views changed? (This statement comes from a much earlier time than the others) I don't know. It is clear he was arguing with a Jew about Jewish concept of a personal God.

What I do know is that this is a single ambiguous statement telling us what he didn't believe and that there are other unambiguous statements that make it perfectly clear what he did believe.


Context??? For every statement you find that you believe proves Einstein was a theist, you know good and well I can find one that directly contradicts it. Darwin's statements are confusing on the issue. There is nothing "unambiguous", particularly when the context is considered.

Here's some more context:


The following excerpt is taken from Dukas and Hofmann, p. 39

In 1954 or 1955 Einstein received a letter citing a statement of his and a seemingly contradictory statement by a noted evolutionist concerning the place of intelligence in the Universe. Here is a translation of the German draft of a reply. It is not known whether a reply was actually sent:

The misunderstanding here is due to a faulty translation of a German text, in particular the use of the word "mystical." I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.



This quote from Einstein appears in Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events.

To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress.

In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task…





The sense of the religious, which is released through the experience of potentially nearing a logical grasp of these deep-lying world relations, is … a feeling of awe and reverence for the manifest Reason which appears in reality. It does not lead to the assumption of a divine personality—a person who makes demands of us and takes an interest in our individual being. In this there is no Will, nor Aim, nor an Ought, but only Being.

— Found in Goldman, p. 33.


Context makes it appear clear that when Einstein talks about "Reason", he's talking about the laws and order of nature, not some deity who created the world.


This article is a speech by Albert Einstein to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, in the autumn of 1932. This short speech appears in the Appendix of White and Gribbon p. 262.

Our situation on this earth seems strange. Every one of us appears here involuntarily and uninvited for a short stay, without knowing the whys and the wherefore. In our daily lives we only feel that man is here for the sake of' others, for those whom we love and for many other beings whose fate is connected with our own I am often worried at the thought that my life is based to such a large extent on the work of my fellow human beings and I am aware of my great indebtedness to them.

I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words: “Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills” accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of freedom of will preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper.

I never coveted affluence and luxury and even despise them a good deal.

My passion for social justice has often brought me into conflict with people, as did my aversion to any obligation and dependence I do not regard as absolutely necessary. I always have a high regard for the individual and have an insuperable distaste for violence and clubmanship.

All these motives made me into a passionate pacifist and anti-militarist. I am against any nationalism, even in the guise of mere patriotism. Privileges based on position and property have always seemed to me unjust and pernicious, as did any exaggerated personality cult.

I am an adherent of the ideal of democracy, although I well know the weaknesses of the democratic form of government. Social equality and economic protection of the individual appeared to me always as the important communal aims of the state.

Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated.

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness.

In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is.


And here's one more piece of confusing context:

BUCKY:

It's ironic that your namc has been synonymous with science in the twentieth century, and yet there has always been a lot of controversy surrounding you in relation to religious questions. How do you account for this unusual circumstance, since science and religion are usually thought to be at odds?

EINSTEIN:

Well, I do not think that it is necessarily the case that science and religion are natural opposites. In fact, I think that there is a very close connection between the two. Further, I think that science without religion is lame and, conversely, that religion without science is blind. Both are important and should work hand-in-hand. It seems to mc that whoever doesn't wonder about the truth in religion and in science might as well be dead.

BUCKY:

So then, you consider yourself to be a religious man?

EINSTEIN:

I believe in mystery and, frankly, I sometimes face this mystery with great fear. In other words, I think that there are many things in the universe that we cannot perceive or penetrate and that also we experience some of the most beautiful things in life in only a very primitive form. Only in relation to these mysteries do I consider myself to be a religious man. But I sense these things deeply. What I cannot understand is how there could possibly be a God who would reward or punish his subjects or who could induce us to develop our will in our daily life.

BUCKY:

You don't believe in God, then?

EINSTEIN:

Ah, this is what I mean about religion and science going hand-in-hand! Each has a place, but each must be relegated to its sphere. Let's assume that we are dealing with a theoretical physicist or scientist who is very well-acquainted with the different laws of the universe, such as how the planets orbit the sun and how the satellites in turn orbit around their respective planets. Now, this man who has studied and understands these different laws-how could he possibly believe in one God who would be capable of disturbing the paths of these great orbiting masses?

No, the natural laws of science have not only been worked out theoretically but have been proven also in practice. I cannot then believe in this concept of an anthropomorphic God who has the powers of interfering with these natural laws. As I said before, the most beautiful and most profound religious emotion that we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. And this mysticality is the power of all true science. If there is any such concept as a God, it is a subtle spirit, not an image of a man that so many have fixed in their minds. In essence, my religion consists of a humble admiration for this illimitable superior spirit that reveals itself in the slight details that we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds .


Here's what I think context reveals about Einstein's beliefs. He did not believe in a God who created the universe. He did not believe in a God who had any will, goal, aim or ought. He even referred to himself as an agnostic. But he kept emphasizing some "superior spirit". When context is considered, it must be admitted that this superior spirit is not a cognizant deity controlling the universe in any way. Referring to the superior spirit is a way of recognizing that man's knowledge is, and always will be, incomplete. It is a way of recognizing that the universe is awe-inspiring. It is the sense of the mystical.

No one is ever going to stop theists from using Einstein to prop up their own beliefs, but the context certainly doesn't paint the clear picture Kevin imagines.

I'm not going to keep arguing this point with you, Kevin. I know from experience that you will not concede even one inch in this argument, even with the above context provided (from the website einsteinandreligion.com). I think enough context has been provided for folks who remain interested in this to judge for themselves.

In regards to Anthony Flew - I'm surprised you keep referring to him after EAllusion linked you to an article that revealed how his was the case of an elderly man beginning to lose his faculties who was manipulated and used by people with an agenda other than Flew's well-being.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magaz ... ref=slogin
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

by the way, I want to point out that this argument over Einstein began when Kevin objected to my assertion that any statement saying Einstein was a theist would have to be carefully qualified. It should be clear, by now, why my assertion was accurate. It is wildly misleading to use any of Einstein's statements as support for either theism or atheism without careful qualifications.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mudcat
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Re: God, How Does He Feel To You?

Post by _Mudcat »

Moniker wrote:Inconceivalbe started a thread not long ago asking who God was to the posters. I've often wondered how God felt to others. I understand that many of you may make knee jerks to this topic. I'm not suggesting that sensing God translates to the truth of God. I don't "believe" in God, and yet, I've always associated certain experiences with God. I don't know why I associated these experiences with God since I wasn't raised to do so -- yet, I did anyway. Not a God of the Bible, or religion -- just a presence of sorts. When you were a believer did you have these experiences? Did they change once you left the Church or lost faith? I lost my belief in God as a child and yet, I never could escape these sensations.

I was thinking earlier how it's quite distracting, at times, for me, to have sensations that there's something more. If I wanted to, right now, I could close my eyes, part my lips slightly, breath in deeply, fill my lungs, exhale slowly and float upwards... Almost as if I'm light -- if you've ever smoked marijuana that is the closest I can come to describing these self induced sensations. Tears or outward emotional reactions almost never occur, for me, yet, they have, as well, at times. If I'm confronted with stunning beauty or sense tranquility I can rise above the mundane of the everyday. Sometimes if I wanted to talk to God I felt enveloped or as if there was a presence with me at the same moment as feeling elevated in some sense. Not just a wee happy feeling, more almost as if soaring above and my body loses mass, almost. A part of eternal, or oneness with all, and loss of self. I purposefully try to avoid talking to God, even as an experiment, because it actually is frightening for me after I leave the experience since when I'm in it I have no doubts, at all. I'd rather not tussle with the issues of doubts. I actually find myself fighting against these sensations. I try to avoid certain things where I know I may be overcome with these sensations as I fear I may go right back into a constant state of uncertainty.

Now I attribute these sensations to brain chemistry.

Yes I'm a cuckoo. :)

What about you?

Hi Moniker,
As a former pot head and a reformed hallucinogenics abuser I get your analogy.
To answer your question though....
How does God feel to me?
I pray a good bit, not in a formal pious way, but just like talking. Most of the time, I feel God is listening and it feels like talking with my best friend.
There other moments, usually when I am repenting for screwing or I really need sound council from him, that it feels like Im talking with my best friend who also happens to be the creator and answer to ... life, the universe and everything. Its a more humbling type scenario, but the first scenario is the most common.
"Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." - Mr. Beaver in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis

_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

usually when I am repenting for screwing


Um, did you mean repenting for screwing UP? :O
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mudcat
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Post by _Mudcat »

beastie wrote:
usually when I am repenting for screwing


Um, did you mean repenting for screwing UP? :O


LOL....yeah I sure did.... OOPS!
I would edit it out, but its too funny.
"Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." - Mr. Beaver in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis

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