Missionary Journal & Depression

[_antishock8]

Could you supply your definition of depression? What is depression, Nehor?

Here's a few definitions:

Me after spending too long on these boards. ;)

My previous loser roommate.

People who need meds and don't take them.

Not enough electroshock therapy.


And Beastie said I was clueless.....HA!!!! Take that.

I don't care if you're joking. That was vile. You're pathetic.

[_The Nehor]

Could you supply your definition of depression? What is depression, Nehor?

Here's a few definitions:

Me after spending too long on these boards. ;)

My previous loser roommate.

People who need meds and don't take them.

Not enough electroshock therapy.


And Beastie said I was clueless.....HA!!!! Take that.

I don't care if you're joking. That was vile. You're pathetic.

You heard it here first folks.

[_malkie]

And if you were the person who was not healed under these circumstances, wouldn't you feel that you were such an unworthy wretch, lacking in faith, ...

Perhaps the person was an unworthy wretch lacking in faith.

You still surprise me sometimes, Nehor - and not always in a nice way. (;=<

I never had such an experience, but as an active member I constantly felt that I could never be good enough, never sacrifice enough, never be strong enough, never perform my callings well enough...

The "joy" was greatly lacking. That was one of the motivations for my total inactivity.

If my best efforts when I was at my "peak" of activity and devotion were not enough, there was no point in continuing. So I didn't.

That was mostly a joke.

Nehor, after reading (and enjoying) many of your one-liners, I can see that you may have intended that as "mostly" a joke.

However, experience suggests to me that it is compatible with the thinking of a number of TBMs - if you're not fanatical in your faithfulness then you can expect bad things to happen to you and your loved ones, and then it's only your own fault.

I wonder that I stuck with it for so many years, and through difficult times in which the best counsel I got from church leaders was to try harder, do more, pray more, obey more ...

[_The Nehor]

Nehor, after reading (and enjoying) many of your one-liners, I can see that you may have intended that as "mostly" a joke.

However, experience suggests to me that it is compatible with the thinking of a number of TBMs - if you're not fanatical in your faithfulness then you can expect bad things to happen to you and your loved ones, and then it's only your own fault.

I wonder that I stuck with it for so many years, and through difficult times in which the best counsel I got from church leaders was to try harder, do more, pray more, obey more ...

It was mostly a joke because the person in question might have been an unworthy wretch. We have the words 'unworthy' and 'wretch' in our language because we think they apply to something. So it's likely there are such people out there.

[_rcrocket]

The teaching that depression is caused by sin, (or even Satan as I have heard many times), was rampant in the LDS church, official doctrine or not. (sigh)

I have often stated that there are some nice teachings in the LDS church but also some very damaging ones... the idea that depression is a sin and through repentance and prayer God will take it away is one of the most damaging of all.

How would it be if someone got cancer, and rather than seeing their doctor they went to their Bishop who told them to repent and pray and all will be well? It is ridiculous to even contemplate yet for some reason within the church there are those who think depression is a result of sin, that a Bishop is the person to go to for help, and repentance is the way to heal.

Depression is a medical illness requiring professional help, not repentance, snake oil, midnight rituals, or an animal sacrifice over the alter.

I have spoken with dozens of LDS women (a few men) over the years who have taken this "depression is the result of sin" teaching to heart, only to suffer in silence, trying to figure out what they are doing wrong, praying with all their heart, only to slide deeper into depression, feeling more and more unworthy. To all those who still believe this nonsense, guess what... prayer and repentance didn't work.

Now, as Liz pointed out I have seen a few small, little baby steps to change this mindset. I know of a couple of stakes that are addressing the issue, a few Bishops who do not counsel those with depression but suggest they receive professional help, and some members who disagree with this teaching when they hear it. So, yes I do think the teaching will diminish over time, but the leaders of the church could certainly squelch this nonsense with one talk in general conference.

Not to derail the thread but it is completely inappropriate for Bishops and other church leaders to play therapist. I don't care if the issue is abuse, marriage difficulties, or depression, they often do much more harm than good.

~dancer~

let me guess. You live in Utah.

It has been my experience instead that a person suffering from depression thinks he or she has very few options, and finds that a pastor is a place to start. Or it could be a bartender. Or a cop after a suicide attempt. I represent several religious entities and by no means do Mormon bishops have a lock on advising people about depression or do Mormons have a lock on depression due to religious onslaught. I also deal with psychiatrists frequently in my profession.

Depression transcends all cultures, all philosophies, all religions. A depressed non-believing college student will blame the pressures of the university and dating. A depressed high school student (and I have dealt with them in the non-religious context) will blame the rejection of peers or an inability with the opposite sex. A depressed mom will blame a sense of failure for not working, or for not being a good mom or whatever.

There have been thousands of articles and publications on the causes and cures.

To suggest that Mormonism, and a bishop is to blame for depression is to really show outright ignorance of the causes and sources of the disease. Good luck in your quest for truth.

[_Chap]

(a) We have the words 'unworthy' and 'wretch' in our language because we think they apply to something.

(b) So it's likely there are such people out there.

(My reformatting to label the propositions.)

(a) is fair enough, though one might frame it a little differently to do away with the reference to what 'we' think.

However (b) does not follow at all; the mere fact that a group uses a certain term, such as 'fairy', 'god', 'caster of the evil eye', 'witch', 'prophet', does not prove anything at all about whether the things supposedly referred to have an objective existence outside the speech-habits of the users of the relevant word.

The only thing that the existence of a word in a group's vocabulary indicates, per se, is that the word is used by the group in question.

[_The Nehor]

(a) We have the words 'unworthy' and 'wretch' in our language because we think they apply to something.

(b) So it's likely there are such people out there.

(My reformatting to label the propositions.)

(a) is fair enough, though one might frame it a little differently to do away with the reference to what 'we' think.

However (b) does not follow at all; the mere fact that a group uses a certain term, such as 'fairy', 'god', 'caster of the evil eye', 'witch', 'prophet', does not prove anything at all about whether the things supposedly referred to have an objective existence outside the speech-habits of the users of the relevant word.

The only thing that the existence of a word in a group's vocabulary indicates, per se, is that the word is used by the group in question.

I admit that the second proposition is more flaky but the history of use of both words indicate that they are and have been applied to people with regularity and not in a metaphorical manner.

[_Chap]

(a) We have the words 'unworthy' and 'wretch' in our language because we think they apply to something.

(b) So it's likely there are such people out there.

(My reformatting to label the propositions.)

(a) is fair enough, though one might frame it a little differently to do away with the reference to what 'we' think.

However (b) does not follow at all; the mere fact that a group uses a certain term, such as 'fairy', 'god', 'caster of the evil eye', 'witch', 'prophet', does not prove anything at all about whether the things supposedly referred to have an objective existence outside the speech-habits of the users of the relevant word.

The only thing that the existence of a word in a group's vocabulary indicates, per se, is that the word is used by the group in question.

I admit that the second proposition is more flaky but the history of use of both words indicate that they are and have been applied to people with regularity and not in a metaphorical manner.

Certain people (the majority in some cultures) use the word 'witch' non-metaphorically and with regularity, but there are in reality no people who correspond to that word in an objective sense; there are just people to whom the word gets applied for reasons which are not inherent in the persons so referred to.

The expression 'blind person' on the other hand is also frequently used non-metaphorically, and since there really are people who cannot detect visual data, we can say that there are indeed people out there to whom this expression applies objectively, and that the expression is applied to them for reasons inherent in the persons so referred to.

My impression about the use of a phrase such as 'unworthy wretch' in a religious context is that it resembles the use of 'witch' much more than it does the use of 'blind person'. Regularity and non-metaphorical use is not enough to establish objective reference.

[_The Nehor]

Certain people (the majority in some cultures) use the word 'witch' non-metaphorically and with regularity, but there are in reality no people who correspond to that word in an objective sense; there are just people to whom the word gets applied for reasons which are not inherent in the persons so referred to.

The expression 'blind person' on the other hand is also frequently used non-metaphorically, and since there really are people who cannot detect visual data, we can say that there are indeed people out there to whom this expression applies objectively, and that the expression is applied to them for reasons inherent in the persons so referred to.

My impression about the use of a phrase such as 'unworthy wretch' in a religious context is that it resembles the use of 'witch' much more than it does the use of 'blind person'. Regularity and non-metaphorical use is not enough to establish objective reference.

I think a better point of reference would be the term jerk. Most of us accept and believe there are in face people who are jerks. I think wretch falls under the same category. However, there is no real objective way of measuring whether someone is a jerk though experience has shown me that often there is a big enough consensus that I feel safe applying the term.

[_beastie]

let me guess. You live in Utah.

It has been my experience instead that a person suffering from depression thinks he or she has very few options, and finds that a pastor is a place to start. Or it could be a bartender. Or a cop after a suicide attempt. I represent several religious entities and by no means do Mormon bishops have a lock on advising people about depression or do Mormons have a lock on depression due to religious onslaught. I also deal with psychiatrists frequently in my profession.

Depression transcends all cultures, all philosophies, all religions. A depressed non-believing college student will blame the pressures of the university and dating. A depressed high school student (and I have dealt with them in the non-religious context) will blame the rejection of peers or an inability with the opposite sex. A depressed mom will blame a sense of failure for not working, or for not being a good mom or whatever.

There have been thousands of articles and publications on the causes and cures.

To suggest that Mormonism, and a bishop is to blame for depression is to really show outright ignorance of the causes and sources of the disease. Good luck in your quest for truth.

For future reference, it might be advisable that you actually read the post to which you are responding. You give very little indication you have done so in this response.