Is homosexuality a choice?

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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Droopy wrote:
And where have the conservatives proven that "the best of traditional sexual norms" (whatever that means) is philosophically right or justifiable, or even logical, for that matter?


Proven? Its in the mountain of social science evidence that's been gathered since the eighties Scratch, the material you, as usual, haven't read.


What are you talking about? What "social science evidence" proves that "the best of traditional sexual norms" (and again, what are these? a precise definition would be nice) are right or justifiable as social practice/policy or [u]logical[/i]?


I once pointed out to Droopy that his argument is based on the logical fallacy known as the Naturalistic Fallacy---i.e., this is what "nature" intended vis-a-vis marriage and family, therefore it must be ethically correct! He fled the scene after this. Later, he came back and tried to maintain that, since the conservative position has its basis in Judeo-Christian beliefs, and since Judeo-Christian beliefs are "extra-logical," that his argument is somehow "immune" to a logic-based critique.


To be clear, I have never made the claim that the "traditional" family is what "nature intended". This is by the design and decree of God, the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ. It is part of the Gospel plan, and optimum for our progression and happiness, deviation from which brings negative consequences, and the farther the deviation, the greater the consequences involved.


In other words, my comments towards the beginning of this thread were correct: there is no "logical" reason to limit marriage to heterosexuals. It's because "Heavenly Father said so."

Quote:
The Left seeks a complete redefinition. Simply throwing up one's hands and deciding to prohibit or not prohibit, outside of the body of value judgments upon which such decisions could be made, is pointless, and purely utilitarian (while the issue is fundamentally moral and, ultimately, metaphysical, grounded in ultimate values).

Translation: "Because my position is metaphysical, you cannot critique it using logic."


You probably should have engaged my point above substantively, but instead, as usual, you threw a dirty snowball and ran away. Typical.


Feel free to explain how the above metaphysical argument can be discussed or debated on logical terms. I'll be waiting patiently for you to enlighten me.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Why is cannibilism wrong?

Whos it hurting?

What if the person being consumed signed a document saying it was ok? That way the cannibilism is between two consenting adults?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Get me isolated in the Andes and ask me...
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Gazelam wrote:Why is cannibilism wrong?

who's it hurting?

What if the person being consumed signed a document saying it was ok? That way the cannibilism is between two consenting adults?

Good question.

That said, was the Donnor party ever charged or punished for their deed?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
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_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

Gazelam wrote:Why is cannibilism wrong?

who's it hurting?

The person being eaten I'd imagine! Unless the person is already dead - in which case it isn't necessarily immoral, just immensely gross. But sometimes desperate times require desperate measures - refer to both Mons and asbs responses if you can't think of any...

...in 'normal'(?) circumstances, I would say it would be considered immoral if the closest kin to the deceased aren't too keen on seeing the corpse of their loved one getting used in a pie - which I'd say is pretty likely...

What if the person being consumed signed a document saying it was ok? That way the cannibilism is between two consenting adults?

If you mean after the person dies of natural causes, then I don't see it as immoral. It's weird, sick and all kinds of other things perhaps, but I wouldn't call it immoral.

However, if you mean eating a person who is alive, then it becomes a fairly disgusting, macabre way for a person to commit assisted suicide.
I don't believe the issue of suicide is as clear cut when considering Libertarian ethics as some might assume. To make my point, consider the following scenario.

A person asks you to:

a. Lock them in a cell
b. Throw away the key
c. Never return and check on them.

Which 'requests' should a Libertarian consider it ok to comply with?


HINT: I certainly don't believe the correct answer is 'all three'...
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

You shouldn't comply with B as a libertarian. Right?
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

Moniker wrote:You shouldn't comply with B as a Libertarian. Right?

...well, I think B could be a considered a bit of a sneaky trick question in a way...

...my response would be:
"As long as there is another key, another key can be made, or there is some other way available to get the person out of the cell if they change their mind..."
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
Moniker wrote:You shouldn't comply with B as a Libertarian. Right?

...well, I think B could be a considered a bit of a sneaky trick question in a way...

...my response would be:
"As long as there is another key, another key can be made, or there is some other way available to get the person out of the cell if they change their mind..."


Arggh! I was about to come edit it! Shoot.

I think the only one you could comply with would be A, truthfully. For the other two ensure that the individual has no ability to change their mind. I think ETHICALLY one should NOT comply with B or C. I think B is the equivalent to C, really.

Edited out redundancy...
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
Gazelam wrote:Why is cannibilism wrong?

who's it hurting?

The person being eaten I'd imagine!


LOL! Great minds! I was thinking the same thing!
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

Moniker wrote:Yet, does not complying with C make you responsible for another individual -- in the libertarian philosophy if you choose to walk away from another individual that is not your responsibility (this individual has made it clear you're not) then can you comply with C?

I think different people might give different answers. But to me, Libertarianism means the aim of the maximum amount of freedom for the maximum amount of people.
...how could I say that I was living to that aim if I willfully place someone in a situation where they aren't able to change their mind?! It doesn't work for me - the behavior doesn't seek to further the 'aims' of Libertarianism. Literally seeing it as 'moral' to do every single thing someone requests that you do to them seems a very shallow version of Libertarianism - and one I'm not down with at all.

Regularly, I would make sure to come back and check on the person, and see if they wanted to be released. If they didn't, then fine. The person might tell me to stop coming back to check on them but - meh - how are they gonna stop me? They're locked in a cage! ;)

I think ETHICALLY one should NOT comply with B or C.

I agree :)
...if B is taken to mean 'The person now has no way to get out of the cell...'

I think B is the equivalent to C, really.

Yeah - pretty much I suppose. Although I think a little detail might be in not only making sure you pay attention to the possibility of somebody changing their mind, but also not knowingly to help people place themselves in positions where they simply cannot change their minds, where there is nothing either they OR you can do about it.

Things like addiction come into play there I think... And it's certainly relevant to the issue of suicide...
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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