What happened to LDS apologist Doug Marshall?

[_bcspace]

God but you are a simpleton.

Anything that does not hew the conservative party line is socialism.

Are the various universal healthcare proposals socialism or not? Is the public redistribution of wealth socialism or not?

What precisely is that substance in your cranium that passes for a brain?

Edited to ad: To others, I apologize for resort to ad homenin. But sometimes you just gotta call a spade (or a dimwit) a spade (or dimwit).

Ad hominem and all sorts of logical fallicies are the strongest weapons in the liberal arsenal.

Notice the lack and even avoidance of actual dialogue on their part. They know their ideology conflicts with LDS doctrine but would rather persist than have light shine on this fact. If they had any truth at all on their side, they would not have to resort to ad hominem.

[_Trevor]

I picture a new right wing Jesus. A gun toting, militeristic, nascar racin' cowboy Jesus, a supply-side Jesus, who blames poverty on the poor and has only recently taken off the white sheets of the clan. This is a false Jesus if there ever was one,...but quite right wing in spirit.

Hey, what's so new about this? He's been around for at least three decades now, and many warped members of the LDS Church, like bc (et al.), are proud to claim him as their own.

[_Jason Bourne]

Are the various universal healthcare proposals socialism or not? Is the public redistribution of wealth socialism or not?

Jesus seemed to believe in the re0distribution of wealth. He commanded the wealthy man who wanted to know what he had to to for eternal life to sell all he had and give it to the poor and then to follow Jesus.

Personally I am opposed to socialism. But I am not sure why you think it is opposed to the gospel.

[_beastie]

BC has bought into the right-wing propaganda about what liberal politics really means. It doesn't mean, for example, forcing people to get abortions: it means - within the parameters of Roe V Wade which already include prohibitions as the pregnancy advances - allowing people to decide for themselves whether or not to get an abortion. The LDS church allows for abortion under certain circumstances as well.

My parents are active, believing Mormons. They are also fervent democrats. While it is true that most LDS today are happy to get into bed with the religious right - which is comprised of a significant percent of people who believe Mormonism is a Satanic cult - the LDS church insists it is politically neutral.

http://newsroom.LDS.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... neutrality

The Church’s mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to elect politicians. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is neutral in matters of party politics. This applies in all of the many nations in which it is established.

Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own decisions and may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with a publicly stated Church position. While the Church may communicate its views to them, as it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these officials still must make their own choices based on their best judgment and with consideration of the constituencies whom they were elected to represent.

Of course BC has shown himself to be impervious to reason in the past, so this will go in one ear and out the other.

[_Moniker]

Hmmm... that's an interesting link, beastie. The Church really doesn't seem to come down on many issues at all, it seems.

Child abuse (well that seems like a no brainer and I can't imagine why a Church would have to come down on a side of that??)

The Church takes no real position on the death penalty and leaves it up to the government essentially.

I looked and couldn't find anything on the official position of the Church in matters of war, or poverty which I would think would be important matters for a Church. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place?

Oh, I found this article on the Church's stance toward war.

http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com ... 5430.shtml

"The LDS church is very sensitive," especially on matters of U.S. patriotism, said Newell Bringhurst, the past president of the Mormon History Association, an independent group of scholars.

Yet Bringhurst, a professor at the College of Sequoias in Visalia, Calif., said the church has long "straddled the fence" on war and peace.

"These mixed messages are very much a part of the Book of Mormon," he said.

The Book of Mormon is a chronology of one conflict after another that justifies the fight against evil. Yet it also is full of injunctions against aggressive war, he said.

But as the church sought acceptance in the 20th century, it "stood foursquare with the nation" through the World Wars, Korean conflict and Vietnam War, she said.

Led by conservatives in solidly Republican Utah, the church has become "hawkish by nature," said Richard Bushman, author of "Mormons in America" (1998) and "Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism" (1984).

One practicing Mormon, Sen. Bob Bennett, R-Utah, found no conflict in Nelson's counsel. He told The Salt Lake Tribune that Mormons have a duty to promote peace, but also to follow their nation's leaders.

"The decision to go to war is not yours, it's the decision of the state in which you live, and if the state decides to go to war, you are not responsible for that decision," he said.

Follow the Prophet unless the government says otherwise? This seems really strange, to me, that a Church that thinks it has God's mouthpiece leading it defers to government authority.

[Guest]

BC has bought into the right-wing propaganda about what liberal politics really means. It doesn't mean, for example, forcing people to get abortions: it means - within the parameters of Roe V Wade which already include prohibitions as the pregnancy advances - allowing people to decide for themselves whether or not to get an abortion. The LDS church allows for abortion under certain circumstances as well.

But not as a general method of birth control. LDS doctrine compares abortion to murder so your agency arguement is akin to saying "Yeah, we can murder under certain circumstsances." Bottom line: "Why kill a child for your own mistakes?"

My parents are active, believing Mormons. They are also fervent democrats.

An impossibility considering the democratic platform. Even if your parents were true conservatives, simply by voting democrat supports a leadership that supports that platform. In that case, one puts themselves under the condemnation of Romans 1:32: Those that support and faciliate such sins are also guilty.

While it is true that most LDS today are happy to get into bed with the religious right - which is comprised of a significant percent of people who believe Mormonism is a Satanic cult - the LDS church insists it is politically neutral.

I've said nothing about the religious right. They have some commonalities with conservatives, that is all. They also have so traits that are unfortuately the analog of left-wing ideology.

Of course BC has shown himself to be impervious to reason in the past, so this will go in one ear and out the other.

You've not really thought this through have you? Ignorance is a trait shared by left wing ideologues and the religious right.

The Church really doesn't seem to come down on many issues at all, it seems.

Not really. However, it's good to compare LDS doctrine with how one votes. It shows one actual beliefs in action.

The Church takes no real position on the death penalty and leaves it up to the government essentially.

It take no political stance. However, as I've shown previously, capital punishment is LDS doctrine.

I looked and couldn't find anything on the official position of the Church in matters of war, or poverty which I would think would be important matters for a Church. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place?

Oh, I found this article on the Church's stance toward war.

You do seem to be looking in the wrong place.

[_beastie]

BC, since you've thought this through so carefully, I'm sure you will be able to prove that liberals advocate the use of abortion as a form of birth control. I won't accept conservative nut-job sources that claim liberals advocate the use of abortion as a form of birth control, just as a warning. You'll have to prove it through mainstream liberal sources themselves.

[_Moniker]

LDS doctrine compares abortion to murder so your agency arguement is akin to saying "Yeah, we can murder under certain circumstsances." Bottom line: "Why kill a child for your own mistakes?"

Yet, no qualms with War where many innocents are murdered under certain circumstances (collateral damage -- that's acceptable newspeak for the right)?

[_beastie]

If LDS truly viewed abortion as murder, they would not allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest - and only allow it when the life of the mother was in danger, which could be argued as a form of self-defense.

[_Moniker]

If LDS truly viewed abortion as murder, they would not allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest - and only allow it when the life of the mother was in danger, which could be argued as a form of self-defense.

Well, of course they don't view it as murder. BCSpace even gave himself away with mentioning "mistakes". This is about ensuring women are punished for sex.