The Six Million Dollar Man

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_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

The Dude wrote:And I think that once the murk settles out of the stream, we will find that Mormons have quit talking about historicity of their peculiar scriptures-- hopefully this will happen in my lifetime.


Dude, very interesting comments. Some barriers still ahead (DHO is Dallin Oaks):

HW: Could you use the middle way, though, in terms of the approach, let’s say the Book of Mormon? Is there a middle way?

DHO: I don’t know what kind of middle way there could be on the Book of Mormon. Either it is a translation of an ancient record under the gift and power of God, or it was written by a mortal. What’s the middle way on that? I don’t think there is a middle way. I think where it came from is either this or that. It’s either what it claimed to be or somebody wrote it. If somebody else wrote it, we don’t have a scrap of evidence, not a viable theory remaining after the facts have been looked at, that anybody wrote it other than Joseph Smith. And the theory that Joseph Smith had the capacity to write it is even discredited by the people who don’t accept what he said about where it came from!

What is the middle way on where the Book of Mormon came from?


LDS Newsroom

This has to be the most interesting thread I've seen posted on MDB. I have some more comments to make on your post.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

The Dude wrote:I think Gadianton and Ray have highlighted some important trends, but let me add my skepticism regarding the notion that there is an organized plot behind the rise of Bushman, et al., as the new apologists. What's essentially going on here is another natural metamorphosis of Mormonism as it slowly enters the watered-down mainstream. An invisible hand is at work, but not the invisible hand of a conspiracy; more like the invisible hand that guides a free economy of ideas. Or the invisible hand that makes water flow downhill.


I don't think there's a conspiracy, either. Agenda, yes. But one might ask, who doesn't have an agenda? Witness the reactions to Claudia Bushman's comments about women in the Church. Some felt she had gone apostate. I'd say her agenda was to try to get some uptight Mormon males to drop their stereotypical views of women, views lingering from the 1950s. Maybe Richard Bushman is playing this "game" both ways? He wants mainstream America to accept Mormons, and I noted his grave concern about attacks on Mormons (and I agree with him on this), but at the same time to reserve his right to believe in Mormonism as he pleases, without imposing his beliefs on others. In other words, "we are really normal, even if we believe in what you consider abnormal, or, supernormal".

Consider some more of his commentary:

There are certain traditions that just persist forever. One is that he was a "colorful fraud," and even a "dangerous fraud," which was a stereotype that was locked on him almost immediately. He was classed with Muhammad as a man who thought he spoke for God and therefore wished to impose his will by force on people around him, and he was frequently compared to Muhammad in his own lifetime. That remains.
I do think there is a growing willingness to respect Joseph Smith because of the success of the Mormon Church. With so many sensible, likeable people who are Mormons and who believe in him, it's not as easy to dismiss him as it was in the 19th century. So there's a look-and-see attitude: Hard to believe he did the things he claimed to do--seeing an angel and translating--and still, here are the consequences, the Mormon people. So there's a suspension of disbelief among some observers.[emphasis added]


http://www.beliefnet.com/story/181/story_18153_1.html

But the thing that has enabled this "suspension of disbelief" amounts to the rejection of some of the things Joseph Smith taught, like Celestial polygamy, and "I don't know that we teach that" watering down. This is the other clarification I asked Mike Otterson for - do you still believe in polygamy, even "in principle". No reply. Not even the First Presidency will admit to, or clarify this. What it amounts to is a slowly discarding theology with the basics intact - primarily the spiritual witness. We KNOW it's true, and that's the most important thing. Don't apply logic, because logic doesn't work in these situations. Like Quinn, Bushman is prepared to lay it all on the table, but in the end still bear fervent testimony. And this is something often overlooked in Quinn. He's a true believer, and he believes that God led him to write what he did, even if he can no longer associate with "officialdom". So like it or not, the "God element" is present, in Quinn and Bushman, and Quinn still believes, as far as I'm aware, that the Book of Mormon is "literal history", and Joseph Smith was a "prophet like Moses". I think, though I could be wrong here, that this is what motivates all apologists. The only people who can make 2+2=5 are the believers. How literally Bushman takes the Book of Mormon, I don't know, but I'd be keen to find out. Does a Professor of American History really believe that Jesus appeared in Mesoamerica? Would he dare ever say that in a doctoral thesis? No, because his belief is "personal", even if totally irrational to most. So no, I don't think there's a "conspiracy", but there is an agenda, and the agenda is to persuade the world that Mormons are really "normal", even if they believe in eccentric things.



The Dude wrote:There was a poll out today about the sensibilities of religious Americans, and it turns out that most evangelicals are open to the idea that other religions can also lead to salvation and eternal life. (!!) Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses were noted as exceptions, in that most LDS and JWs still think their religion is the "one and only" but this just means they are behind in their thinking. They haven't seen the light of Bushman and his ilk, but LDS leaders are dropping hints towards that eventuality. Murky postmodernism isn't part of anyones secret agenda, but it is, I think, the principal course of future LDS. And I think that once the murk settles out of the stream, we will find that Mormons have quit talking about historicity of their peculiar scriptures-- hopefully this will happen in my lifetime.


I don't think they're going to stop talking about historicity, not for the near future anyway, but I also think that if historicity is the "armour" with which they protect their spiritual beliefs, all I can say is, if you have to depend on the historicity of a book to maintain your belief in God, then your belief in God is extremely fragile.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

DHO: I don’t know what kind of middle way there could be on the Book of Mormon. Either it is a translation of an ancient record under the gift and power of God, or it was written by a mortal.


One might suggest that even for a literalist both positions would have to be true.

And the theory that Joseph Smith had the capacity to write it is even discredited by the people who don’t accept what he said about where it came from!


By some, maybe. I am quite comfortable with the idea that Joseph wrote it.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Ray A wrote:Like Quinn, Bushman is prepared to lay it all on the table, but in the end still bear fervent testimony. And this is something often overlooked in Quinn. He's a true believer, and he believes that God led him to write what he did, even if he can no longer associate with "officialdom". So like it or not, the "God element" is present, in Quinn and Bushman, and Quinn still believes, as far as I'm aware, that the Book of Mormon is "literal history", and Joseph Smith was a "prophet like Moses".


Thank you! This receives far less attention and acknowledgment than it deserves. Imagine how scary it would be to let a guy like this Quinn fellow loose at the Yale conference. Geez!
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Trevor wrote:
Thank you! This receives far less attention and acknowledgment than it deserves. Imagine how scary it would be to let a guy like this Quinn fellow loose at the Yale conference. Geez!


And let me add, Trev, that I feel nothing but sorrow at how Michael Quinn has been treated. I've read many of his books, and it was his 1985 Dialogue article that really set me on the path of real questioning. When I was at university in 1986, I tried to get my hands on everything he wrote. At that time, he was my hero. A Mormon historian who was willing to tell it "like it was". Though it blasted my "TBM" faith in the leadership, I wanted nothing but the truth - and Quinn delivered it.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I also think it’s likely that this isn’t a dark conspiracy, but a natural evolution, a reaction to a force – the force being the increasing accessibility of information that will lead members to doubt the orthodox interpretation of Mormonism. The question is will doubting the orthodox interpretation of Mormonism lead them out of the church? I think it’s possible that the leadership has always been somewhat divided on this point. There are those who believe that it’s better to cull doubters or fringers from the herd, because they will lead others astray. This was the dominant philosophy during the period I left the church, as demonstrated by the excommunication of the September 6. I considered staying with “alternate views”, kind of like cinepro has done, but my considerations were taking place during the period the 6 got the ax, and not only that act, but the subsequent talk about it convinced me that there was no place for me in the church. My gospel doctrine teacher (who, as an interesting bit of trivia, was Teryl Given’s father) shared the news of the excommunications in Sunday School, along with his lengthy diatribe of culling wolves from the herd to protect the sheep. I knew, that day, I could not stay in the church as an alternate voice – the church didn’t want alternate voices. Plus, I knew I wouldn’t be able to remain eternally silent about my alternate beliefs.

But even throughout the history of the church there have been alternate voices asking for the allowance of alternate voices. I do not believe that viewpoint has been allowed to become dominant, or much more than an occasional wink/nod about certain believers like Eugene England. However, something has changed, in my opinion, and that something is increasing access to the internet. I am convinced that leaders are concerned about the loss of faith among members who have been exposed to this information. Perhaps this is the force that will finally convince leadership that they must allow alternate voice, as it becomes more clear that not allowing those alternate voices will result in increasing loss of membership.

This is not an easy choice, because faiths that allow themselves to become liberalized in this way often experience a shift in membership, anyway. Their numbers decline and members contribute less money. If members move away from viewing their leaders’ teachings as the equivalent of counsel from God (and this liberalization would guarantee that), they’re going to feel more permission to do things like choose not to pay a full ten percent tithing. So it’s almost six of one, half a dozen of the other – almost a roll of the dice to figure out which devil to embrace. I do think that the increasing role of Bushman likely indicates that they are leaning towards liberalization.

This evolution is not unique to Mormonism – many religions before it have traveled this path. It’s just interesting to see it happen before our eyes. Of course, it’s still possible a backlash will occur and a move back towards literalism is in the future (has happened in the past in Mormonism).

by the way, Quinn not only believes that Joseph Smith was truly chosen to restore (insert Quinn's idea of the true church here) but he also bore lengthy testimony about one of the modern prophets as well at a Sunstone conference I attended - I can't remember which one in particular it was, I guess whoever was prophet when Quinn was coming of age. So I think that those who opposed the inclusion of Quinn are on the "no liberalization" side of this argument (ironic, considering how MAD apologists like to present themselves as "liberal" in the first place).
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

Ray,

The reason I don't think any of the pomo stuff or really any Book of Mormon "scholarship" ultimately will work is that no one who does it has any goal outside proving it true or false. You have to start with the premise that it's true, and then try to find creative ways to make the text hit what ever standard you've decided on. That's evident in the dealings you've had where you're not allowed to voice your opinions. The variety of new apologists all have one thing in common. You can experiment all you want with the right side of the equation, as long as you don't F... with the left side.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Gad,

I know what you're saying. Whenever I've tried to muster the faith (and God knows I've tried many times) to see the "historical/archaeological evidences", I've been able to keep going for a while (a la John Clark, "enter the paradigm"), but after a time my brain just goes haywire. Scholars like David Wright make much more sense to me, and "Thud!", I'm back to earth, and we all know what happened to Wright. I think this is a "symptom" of a broad range of attitudes in the Church, the end result of Wright.

Anyway, I'd like to see this thread keep going, with more ideas, but for the next few days I'll be largely out of bounds with work commitments, including 16-17 hour nights this weekend, and I won't be in much shape to think clearly. I'm off in 30 minutes.
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

I do think that the increasing role of Bushman likely indicates that they are leaning towards liberalization.


Yes, it's possible. But they are in a real conundrum here. Because as you point out, liberalization means less tithes. And if there is anyting that puts the brethren into panic mode, it's a decline in tithes and offerings. How will Bushman receive continued financing? I can't help but think there is a fascist solution here. I had a BYU lecture by a die-hard Nietzchien who used material from an R-rated movie to further his agenda at the school. I think Hunter's vision of an enslaved human race that answers only to the General Authorities is very right-wing. There is plenty of material from Nietzsche and Martin Heidegger that casts suspicion on science and traditional reason. While Bushman is certainly a socialist, the precise ways in which he justifies his "nuance" of historical truth will ultimately be translatable into faciest forms when the brethren are ready and Bushman has fulfillled his use and can be discarded.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Gadianton wrote:Yes, it's possible. But they are in a real conundrum here. Because as you point out, liberalization means less tithes. And if there is anyting that puts the brethren into panic mode, it's a decline in tithes and offerings. How will Bushman receive continued financing? I can't help but think there is a fascist solution here. I had a BYU lecture by a die-hard Nietzchien who used material from an R-rated movie to further his agenda at the school. I think Hunter's vision of an enslaved human race that answers only to the General Authorities is very right-wing. There is plenty of material from Nietzsche and Martin Heidegger that casts suspicion on science and traditional reason. While Bushman is certainly a socialist, the precise ways in which he justifies his "nuance" of historical truth will ultimately be translatable into faciest forms when the brethren are ready and Bushman has fulfillled his use and can be discarded.

I haven't been following this thread, but I hope that the paragraph above is a parody of something.
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