What happened to LDS apologist Doug Marshall?

[_bcspace]

BC, since you've thought this through so carefully, I'm sure you will be able to prove that liberals advocate the use of abortion as a form of birth control. I won't accept conservative nut-job sources that claim liberals advocate the use of abortion as a form of birth control, just as a warning. You'll have to prove it through mainstream liberal sources themselves.

It doesn't matter if one personally eschews abortion as a method of birth control but votes to allow others to make that choice without consequence, hindrance, or protection of the rights of the unborn to be born. If LDS doctrine is against such a thing, then one has voted contrary to LDS doctrine.

I'm still looking for an exclusively left wing issue/modus operandi that does not contradict LDS doctrine. It's telling that no one has listed one yet.

[_bcspace]

Well, of course they don't view it as murder. BCSpace even gave himself away with mentioning "mistakes". This is about ensuring women are punished for sex.

That is incorrect. Both the male and female have to take responsibilty. Sometimes it's one, or the other, or both who decide that abortion is the course of action. Abortion as a method of birth control removes the agency of one or more people. That is in part why it's comparable to murder.

If LDS truly viewed abortion as murder, they would not allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest - and only allow it when the life of the mother was in danger, which could be argued as a form of self-defense.

That is also incorrect. In the case of rape and incest, the agency of the mother was removed and, imho, Trump's the agency of the unborn.

[_beastie]

Just as I thought. You are not able to prove that liberals advocate abortion as a form of birth control. That's because they don't.

Others on this thread have already shared liberal policies that correlate with Jesus' teachings. That you are unwilling to recognize it as valid is your problem, not ours.

The God of the Old Testament did not treat killing an unborn child as the equivalent of murder, either.

Exodus
22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

The LDS footnotes say that "mischief" means "other harm".

Obviously GOD did not consider the miscarriage of the woman from an act of violence as the equivalent of murder.

[Guest]

Abortion as a method of birth control removes the agency of one or more people. That is in part why it's comparable to murder.

A fetus has agency? Is that what you're saying? "one or more people" -- is that a reference to twins? I have no idea what you're attempting to say to me.

In the case of rape and incest, the agency of the mother was removed and, imho, Trump's the agency of the unborn.

There is no agency removed in the case of incest unless it was forced. The statement from the Church says "rape or incest". So, a child conceived from an incestuous consenting union that is aborted is not really murdered?

Why are you so adamant that a fetus is being murdered by abortion and yet ignore my remarks about murder (collateral damage) during war, bc? There's lack of consistency here in your philosophy.

Bottom line is beastie is correct with her statement that there is an allowance of "murder" under certain circumstances.

[_beastie]

That is also incorrect. In the case of rape and incest, the agency of the mother was removed and, imho, Trump's the agency of the unborn.

How utterly repulsive. If abortion is murder, as you claim, because the mother had no agency in the matter, it is right to murder the innocent child.

Just one more demonstration of how immoral and disgusting it is that you worship the god you do.

[_bcspace]

That is also incorrect. In the case of rape and incest, the agency of the mother was removed and, imho, Trump's the agency of the unborn.

How utterly repulsive. If abortion is murder, as you claim, because the mother had no agency in the matter, it is right to murder the innocent child.

Far less disgusting than the wholesale destruction of thousands of unborn children just because someone forgot to wear a condom. Plus the mother can still decide to carry to term. You can't have it both ways; the one being repulsive and the other not.

[_beastie]

Far less disgusting than the wholesale destruction of thousands of unborn children just because someone forgot to wear a condom. Plus the mother can still decide to carry to term. You can't have it both ways; the one being repulsive and the other not.

This is the second time you've done this recently in a response to me. You respond that while worshiping the god you do may be disgusting, it's less disgusting than (fill in the blank).

Are you so clueless as to not recognize that people who support abortion rights do not view first term abortions as the "wholesale destruction of thousands of unborn children"?



Now, obviously as the pregnancy advances, there is a point where most people would recognize the fetus as an unborn child. Your argument does not recognize these reasonable distinctions. But no one here really imagines you're reasonable in the first place.

by the way, I notice that you had no rebuttal to the scripture I quoted that shows God clearly does not view the forced miscarriage of a fetus to be the equivalent of the murder of a human being.

[_Chap]

The God of the Old Testament did not treat killing an unborn child as the equivalent of murder, either.

Exodus
22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

The LDS footnotes say that "mischief" means "other harm".

Obviously GOD did not consider the miscarriage of the woman from an act of violence as the equivalent of murder.

I have missed bcspace's one-liner in response to the Old Testament deity's misunderstanding of the Gospel ... I am sure there is one coming soon.

[_Tarski]

If LDS truly viewed abortion as murder, they would not allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest - and only allow it when the life of the mother was in danger, which could be argued as a form of self-defense.

If I am not mistaken, a women who has had an abortion may be baptised while a person who has committed murder may not be baptised.


So the church sees a difference. (Naturally, the opinion of the Mormon leadership on this issue is of little interest to me unless it becomes a threat to the rest of us)/.

[_bcspace]

If LDS truly viewed abortion as murder, they would not allow abortion in the cases of rape and incest - and only allow it when the life of the mother was in danger, which could be argued as a form of self-defense.

If I am not mistaken, a women who has had an abortion may be baptised while a person who has committed murder may not be baptised.

So the church sees a difference. (Naturally, the opinion of the Mormon leadership on this issue is of little interest to me unless it becomes a threat to the rest of us)/.

Indeed. I said "like unto murder", I did not say it equates to murder. Some have been arguing against a strawman here. While the Church does see a difference, it does consider it to be extremely serious. In fact, murder, unchasity, and abortion are often referenced in the same breath.