Our leaders

[_Dr. Shades]

Wow, Sethbag! That whole post was signature-worthy.

Perhaps you can edit it to include a paragraph on the Kirtland Bank fiasco?

[_Nevo]

1. He cheated on his wife with dozens of women, taking pains to ensure Emma didn't find out about his liaisons, and threatening her with Godly destruction if she wouldn't go along, in the cases she knew about. He told young teenage s that an angel of the Lord with a drawn sword threatened to kill him if he didn't take more wives, the corollary to which is "if you don't marry me, the angel will kill me, the Prophet of God". He also was a party to the destruction and attempted destruction of womens' characters in cases where they didn't agree with his propositions. In his life, Joseph Smith was a scoundrel.

When you put it that way, he does sound like a scoundrel. But I don't think your summary is accurate. I happen to think Joseph was sincere in his practice of polygamy. I think he really believed that God required it--and that he would lose his calling and incur the vengeance of God if he didn't comply (see D&C 3:4-11; 35:17-18). I don't think he would have done it otherwise.

Carmon Hardy has observed that

Joseph displayed an astonishingly principled commitment to the doctrine. He had to overcome opposition from his brother Hyrum and the reluctance of some of his disciples. Reflecting years later on the conflicts and dangers brought by plural marriage, some church leaders were struck with the courage Joseph displayed in persisting with it. And when one recalls a poignant encounter like that between William Law and Joseph in early 1844, it is difficult not to agree. Law, putting his arms about the prophet's neck, tearfully pleaded that he throw the entire business of plurality over. Joseph, also crying, replied that he could not, that God had commanded it, and he had no choice but to obey.

-- B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1992), 9.

Did Joseph Smith make mistakes in implementing the principle of plural marriage? I think he did. Publicly denouncing Sarah Pratt as a "[whore] from her mother's breast" was not a high point in Joseph's career, but I think his resentment and sense of betrayal are understandable in context (see Gary Bergera's discussion in Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002], 7-32).

[_Yoda]

I mentioned this on the polygamy thread, but it's worth noting here as well:

Elder Scott flatly refused to remarry after his wife, Jeneane died of cancer. He said that he had already had the love of his life, and there would never be another. He would wait until they could be together again.

That's a far cry from the leaders in the Joseph Smith/Brigham Young era.

;)

[_Nevo]

2. He represented to people that a magic rock, viewed within his hat, would reveal to him the location of ancient buried treasure on peoples' property, and that for a fee he would show them where to dig so they could recover it. This was a blatant lie, and he never recovered buried treasure for anyone - but he did take their money. In this "business" dealing, Joseph Smith was a scoundrel.

There is plenty of evidence that Joseph and his family and many of his neighbors believed that he had a seeric gift. Joseph grew up in a culture steeped in folk magic. I think he really believed he could see things with his "magic rock."

[_The Dude]

I don't happen to believe that people do things for one and only one reason, or hold one set of beliefs at the exclusion of all other viewpoints. We rationalize by shifting between reasons and viewpoints, in speaking to others and in our own minds. Joseph might have had some belief in his own seer powers, he might have had faith in himself, but he probably also doubted himself, and rationalized those doubts in various ways. What if I am wrong about my powers? How would they know and what would be the consequences? What do I gain by standing up to my family and business contacts and admitting to them that I don't have the power, after all? Maybe our gang will get lucky and actually find something golden (wishful thinking helps, here). The easier path is to go with the flow. If nothing else it's an ego trip... it's hard to let that go once you are hooked. Eventually it becomes a habit and there you are: a prophet.

It's much the same for polygamy. No, actually I think his responsibility is greater on the polygamy issue because by then he was a grown man and there's no evidence that polygamy was pressured or enforced on him by family and friends. It originated with him, most likely from his own desire to push the envelope, to experiment with the limits of his power to shape his church. I believe this because it is the most plausible, human explanation to me. In other words, I don't believe he was mentally ill, nor do I believe the claim that he was forced into this practice by God.

I happen to think Joseph was sincere in his practice of polygamy. I think he really believed that God required it--and that he would lose his calling and incur the vengeance of God if he didn't comply (see D&C 3:4-11; 35:17-18). I don't think he would have done it otherwise.

Maybe, after voicing this rationalization so many times, he ultimately came to believe it was his central motivation. Some of his followers believed his sincerity, but importantly, many who knew about this experiment rejected his claims that he had no choice before God.

[_Yong Xi]

1. He cheated on his wife with dozens of women, taking pains to ensure Emma didn't find out about his liaisons, and threatening her with Godly destruction if she wouldn't go along, in the cases she knew about. He told young teenage s that an angel of the Lord with a drawn sword threatened to kill him if he didn't take more wives, the corollary to which is "if you don't marry me, the angel will kill me, the Prophet of God". He also was a party to the destruction and attempted destruction of womens' characters in cases where they didn't agree with his propositions. In his life, Joseph Smith was a scoundrel.

When you put it that way, he does sound like a scoundrel. But I don't think your summary is accurate. I happen to think Joseph was sincere in his practice of polygamy. I think he really believed that God required it--and that he would lose his calling and incur the vengeance of God if he didn't comply (see D&C 3:4-11; 35:17-18). I don't think he would have done it otherwise.

I find it very difficult to visualize Joseph pleading with God, asking Him to be relieved of the torment of having sex with dozens of women.

If Joseph was "sincere", he was obviously deluded.

[_John Larsen]

I mentioned this on the polygamy thread, but it's worth noting here as well:

Elder Scott flatly refused to remarry after his wife, Jeneane died of cancer. He said that he had already had the love of his life, and there would never be another. He would wait until they could be together again.

That's a far cry from the leaders in the Joseph Smith/Brigham Young era.

;)

Yes, but that is not the majority position today. Oaks openly boasts that he will be married to both of his wives in the eternities. I think there are 3 current members who have remarried and practice de facto Mormon polygamy.

[_rcrocket]

I mentioned this on the polygamy thread, but it's worth noting here as well:

Elder Scott flatly refused to remarry after his wife, Jeneane died of cancer. He said that he had already had the love of his life, and there would never be another. He would wait until they could be together again.

That's a far cry from the leaders in the Joseph Smith/Brigham Young era.

;)

Yes, but that is not the majority position today. Oaks openly boasts that he will be married to both of his wives in the eternities. I think there are 3 current members who have remarried and practice de facto Mormon polygamy.

I see this point you make frequently made by others, others I consider mere needlers. I see it only as needless needling. I mean, what should have Elder Oaks done? Not remarry?

[_The Dude]

I think the problem is when Oaks and other prominent members put on an unhappy face about apostate sects that still believe in polygamy.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I think the problem is when Oaks and other prominent members put on an unhappy face about apostates who believe in polygamy.

Or when the Brethren claim the LDS Church today has nothing to do with polygamy.

by the way, Oaks has always been open about having two eternal companions in the hereafter. However, when Helen Whitney interviewed him for the PBS show (this part of the interview was not shown on the broadcast, I believe), Oaks backed off considerably (bold mine for emphasis):

HW: There still is some confusion that polygamy is definitively and unequivocally disallowed in this world. What will happen in the next? There is a perception that polygamy is part of the afterlife. Could you talk a little about that?

DHO: If I talked about that I'd be making doctrinal statements where the prophet has not chosen to make doctrinal statements, so I think I shouldn't say anything except to affirm that a lot of people, myself included, are in mulitple-marriage situations. Look at the significance of that. There are a lot of people that live on this earth that have been married to more than one person. Sometimes those marriages have ended with death; sometimes they've ended with divorce. What does the next life mean to them in relation to a covenant they once made and so on? I don't think those people have much of an answer for that question. It might not bother them because they don't believe that people will live as married couples in the next life. And if they don't make and live for the covenants to do that, [as for themselves] they're right! But for people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, "What will life be in the next life, when you're married to more than one wife for eternity?" I have to say I don't know. But I know that I've made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that's anticipated here will be realized in the next life. How? Why, I don't know.