Our leaders

[_The Dude]

Neal Chandler offered some thoughts on this a few years back:

The questioned begged by Quinn's [description of Joseph Smith]--why would God choose such a paradoxical man?--is transformed into this juxtaposition. Why wouldn't God choose just such a man--part prophet, part charlatan, part guru and heretic, high church cleric and sandlot politician--the enigmatic, multifarious sort of man who demonstrably, historically has always come equipped for the founding of a new religious tradition.

And then, moreover, why wouldn't God replace him with the kind of men, able and devoted lieutenants, who have always extended and consolidated and also distorted an incipient movement?

-- Neal Chandler, "Beyond a Shadow of Certitude: Field Notes from a Stupor of Thought," Sunstone (February 2000): 36-37.

Why would God choose ____? Why wouldn't God choose ____? These questions do nothing to advance the discussion or excuse Joseph Smith because #1 nobody knows what God thinks and #2 it begs the question that God had anything to do with this. Remember, you are speaking to people who believe Joseph chose himself.

Jesus of Nazareth was also a troubling, paradoxical figure, whose teachings and behavior challenged and scandalized the society in which he lived.

Let me see if I understand. As long as you say God made you do it...

[_truth dancer]

Can one be a Charismatic leader without being a bit of a scoundrel?

If God could create a UNIVERSE, I'm thinking he could find a good human being to establish the one and only true church.

Or, if there was no such person, couldn't God at the very least help a good person with a little charisma? You know, give him a few extra gifts along the way?

Or if there was a good person without charisma and God couldn't provide a little spark of personality and leadership, I'm thinking God could find a way to help his chosen children to be attracted to good people who are decent and honorable even without charisma. I don't think this would be too difficult for GOD but who knows? ;-)

Now... why would one assume God would choose a not so decent guy to start the church? Well... this is a good question and one I have personally considered and contemplated.

It could be that my expectations are too high and that any not so great womanizer could be inspired, and God doesn't care if a man is decent or honorable so long as he gets followers. I suppose in many ways this could go along with the angry, jealous "spear throwing God" of the Old Testament.

OTOH, my personal sense of life and holiness would suggest that the more enlightened one is, the more truth and goodness can be expressed and reflected in her/his life. And, those who live a life less aware and less decent and loving are less responsive to holiness.

I would even suggest that various cruel and/or unhealthy behaviors, thoughts, and attitudes actually thwart kindness, concern, love and enlightenment; things like sexually using girls and women, lying to followers, manipulating and coercing others, etc. etc.

In sum, while of course a God could do anything God wants, the idea that God would or could pick a not so great man as the one to bring to the earth the one and only true church makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to me.

Could be wrong however... there are lots of men who claim to be the messenger/prophet of God, who claim God wants them to have all sorts of girls and women. Seems the two claims often go together.

The idea that God would chose a not so great man who is similar to all the other not so great guys who make similar claims about God and their role as prophet seems strange to me.


~dancer~

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Illinois is another matter. The saints had remarkable strength and power there and in the final analysis showed remarkable restraint.

Indeed. The battle for Nauvoo is a very little-known event in the history of the Saints.

After Brigham Young left, the Church really had no intention of simply giving up possessions a property in Nauvoo for nothing. There were efforts to sell property at market, including the temple. There were hundreds of saints left behind. They were forced to leave after hand-to-hand armed conflict in the streets of Nauvoo between its residents and members of the state and local militia. (See Glen Leonard's Nauvoo.) Think of it -- being forced from your home, without your possessions, and marched down to the riverbank at the point of a bayonet held by a member of the state militia.

And Inconceivable thinks the saints did something to deserve this justice. Man I am glad I am not his neighbor. So let's have it Inc. What crime justified this treatment?

And how do you feel about the injustice served upon the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints?

[_Inconceivable]

Sheeesh. Does anyone read what I said? I certainly did not do what you imply here.

I think a number of you have lost your ability to think rationally about things LDS.

oop, sorry Jason. But if you did say persecuted Mormons were just like holocast Jews, my comment would have been quite thought provoking and relevant instead of, well, really dumb.

[_moksha]

Can one be a Charismatic leader without being a bit of a scoundrel?

If God could create a UNIVERSE, I'm thinking he could find a good human being to establish the one and only true church.

Or, if there was no such person, couldn't God at the very least help a good person with a little charisma? You know, give him a few extra gifts along the way?

Or if there was a good person without charisma and God couldn't provide a little spark of personality and leadership, I'm thinking God could find a way to help his chosen children to be attracted to good people who are decent and honorable even without charisma. I don't think this would be too difficult for GOD but who knows? ;-)

~dancer~

It just seemed to me that most leaders we have deemed as Charismatic, have ended up having some excesses (the bit of scoundrel) in their private lives.

[_beastie]

It just seemed to me that most leaders we have deemed as Charismatic, have ended up having some excesses (the bit of scoundrel) in their private lives.

Evolution explains that quite well. Religion doesn't.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, I am suggesting that besides their followers, Joseph Smith & Co, were not looked upon as men of honor.

I am suggesting that in most cases the views were motivated by something other than fact. Can you deal with the issues I raised? Religious, economic nad political bigotry or jealousy seemed to motivate most the conclusions about Smith. Therefore they were not objective in most cases.

Interesting most his followers thought very highly of him. Yet you rely on the views of his enemies and discount his followers, those who knew him best really. Thus I question your objectivity in this.

That is all. My post regarding the saints being kicked out of town was to support this claim.

And for the reasons noted above I explain why I think this is poor reasoning.

If you think Joseph Smith & Co, WERE looked upon (by non-believers) as great and noble men please give me some evidence for this.

I have read a number of quotes here and there by non LDS that speak highly of him. The mayor of Boston-a Quincy I think, did. A frecnh contemporary author I think it was Tocqueville ? who commented that Smith could go down in history and the greatest American of the 19th century. I am doing this form memory. I don't have the time or energy to look this up right now.

Besides this point, no I do not think that men who sleep around, lie to their wives, coerce girls and women into a relationship, and claim God told them to behave in such a way are men of honor.

Personally I agree that plural marriage was a major failing. But I also hold the possibility that Joseph really believed God was commanding this.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sheeesh. Does anyone read what I said? I certainly did not do what you imply here.

I think a number of you have lost your ability to think rationally about things LDS.

oop, sorry Jason. But if you did say persecuted Mormons were just like holocast Jews, my comment would have been quite thought provoking and relevant instead of, well, really dumb.

That is not what I said. I said the Jews were not well liked and that was no reason to conclude that they were up to something bad. I applied the same princple to the Mormons. Try reading what I wrote instead of becoming unglued due to your irrational view of the Mormon Church.

[_beastie]

I am suggesting that in most cases the views were motivated by something other than fact. Can you deal with the issues I raised? Religious, economic nad political bigotry or jealousy seemed to motivate most the conclusions about Smith. Therefore they were not objective in most cases.

Do you think most people view this man as a scoundrel?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/06/sec ... index.html

Bent said on the Web site that God revealed to him in 2000 that he is the Messiah.

A post from Monday written by Bent said, "The current upheaval over me and the present contest is well under way. It was the same for Jesus. Jesus had not committed any crimes, so the authorities had to invent some crimes to crucify him over.

"It is the same for me also," Bent wrote. "I have committed no crimes, but many crimes are being imagined and concocted in the minds of men to try and kill me again. Men are so stupid, though, for they do not know that they cannot kill Spirit."

Last month, authorities removed two girls and a boy from the compound. The reasons for their removal are not publicly known, but the removals gained attention because they came after more than 400 children were removed from the Texas ranch of an offshoot Mormon sect that practices polygamy. Those children remain in state custody.

Bent has acknowledged having sex with his followers, but authorities will not divulge who the alleged victims are.

A former member of the Lord Our Righteousness Church, however, told CNN affiliate KOAT that he left because Bent wanted to sleep with his daughters.

John Sayer said he split with the church after 16 years when Bent told him he was supposed to sleep with seven virgins -- and that two of them were to be Sayer's daughters, then 14 and 15 years old. He said he told Bent that it wasn't right and that he, his wife and his daughters left the compound.

[_Jason Bourne]

Did Smith claim to be a messiah? Did Smith struggle over polygamy? Did he consider ending it before he was vicuosly murdered?

Look, I do not view Joseph Smith as some perfect little never do nothing wrong person. I think he started a Church with good intents and that God inspired him. I think that as often happens he gave in to some pride and liked the power it brought him over his people. I think he made some major mistakes along the way, polygamy being the largest.

Do I view him as a cut and dry malicious scoundrel. No I do not. I think the issues are complex.

Am I willing to cut him more slack due to what I have invested in Mormonism? I hold this out as a real possibility.