Our leaders

[_harmony]

I think we can all agree that it would have been better had the mob allowed the law to run its course. Had there been no gunfight, there would have been no martyrdom, and all would have emerged in court and would have been put on the record.

What I'd like to explore is Mahonri's comment about our leaders today. I've seen BKP as sort of the Lord's Pit Bull, taking on subjects the others are too chicken to attack, but I've never seen him as mean. I'm curious about that and the other comments. Does anyone have any interaction with our leaders that could shed some light on this?

[_Jason Bourne]

Holy sh!t droopy. What a waste of bandwidth.

POST LINKS NEXT TIME.

And thank you, as you have proven my point, quite perfectly.

An objective viewer can explain Smith's behavior in a few sentences.

The diatribe that you cut-n-pasted is similar to a defense attorney defending a confessed ciminal. Bottom line is to keep his client out of prison.

Every Mormon member is a defense attorney for Joseph Smith and must keep Smith within the divinity that he claimed to have been given.

You have an explicit need to believe and are therefore required to be subjective in the analysis of the historical data concerning this matter.

Did you read it? Actually it is one of the better apologetics I have read on the subject.

[_Jason Bourne]

Are you for murdering the FLDS Leaders and driving the adherents from their homes? I look forward to your answer and expect it now that I have asnwered you.

Where did I advocate murder?

The FLDS, are breaking established laws which forbid polygamy, just like the early LDS did(1833 Illinois law against bigamy). Both should be prosecuted equally, both as individuals and as an organization.

Disband them just like the good citizens of the mid 1800's tried to do with the polygamists by running the whole organization off the land which they sit upon.

Ah do you are not for murder but are for denying constitutional rights as well as property.

What ever it takes to disband them. Just like what they had to do to stop the theocracy of Briggie.

Further demonstration of your irrationality on this issue and really even bigotry. by the way, what the US did to the Church in the late 19th century was clearly unconstitutional.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think we can all agree that it would have been better had the mob allowed the law to run its course. Had there been no gunfight, there would have been no martyrdom, and all would have emerged in court and would have been put on the record.

What I'd like to explore is Mahonri's comment about our leaders today. I've seen BKP as sort of the Lord's Pit Bull, taking on subjects the others are too chicken to attack, but I've never seen him as mean. I'm curious about that and the other comments. Does anyone have any interaction with our leaders that could shed some light on this?

Your thread had run down a different line in your absence. Unless Mahonri has personal experience I think he is just blustering.

[_harmony]

I think we can all agree that it would have been better had the mob allowed the law to run its course. Had there been no gunfight, there would have been no martyrdom, and all would have emerged in court and would have been put on the record.

What I'd like to explore is Mahonri's comment about our leaders today. I've seen BKP as sort of the Lord's Pit Bull, taking on subjects the others are too chicken to attack, but I've never seen him as mean. I'm curious about that and the other comments. Does anyone have any interaction with our leaders that could shed some light on this?

Your thread had run down a different line in your absence. Unless Mahonri has personal experience I think he is just blustering.

I see that. Had I had any sort of discernment, I'd have worded the opening paragraph differently. As it is, I guess I'll just see if it's worth it to start another thread, because obviously this one isn't discussing what I'd hoped to discuss.

[_Droopy]

I really can't tell Liz, because TD never makes any arguments. Statements of opinion yes, but never arguments, and without arguments, I cannot judge whetgher she is capable of rational discourse or not.

I'm not here to debate or argue Loren. I'm having fun discussing, chatting, sharing ideas, learning, exploring... I really don't care what others believe nor do I think others should view life as do I. In fact I am glad for the variety of insights and experiences on the board.

Suffice it to say, she has clearly never done the requisite homework or study of the plural marriage issue such that she could discourse intelligently upon the matter.

I've read quite a bit Loren... I just see the world differently than do you. As Liz said, just because I disagree doesn't mean I haven't read the material. You don't seem to realize people can see the world differently.

She can criticize and defame Joseph and other early practitioners of the Lord's form of plural marriage, and engage in great swelling moral condemnations of plural marriage (but not, curiously, other modern moral problems in the area of human sexuality) but not discourses intelligently on it, and I'm frankly getting tired of discussing Mormon issues with people not up to intelligent discussion of such issues.

Well, actually, yeah, there is nothing that will persuade me that the God of the Universe, the one who created the galaxies and stars and life itself, tells various men to screw/sleep with/take/own/use/abuse/marry/whatever girls and women. I have tried to go with this and believe it. It just doesn't work for me. As I said I put all men who make such claims in the same category. Joseph Smith isn't getting special treatment from me. (smile). And, I have and do speak out against other practices that I find harmful regarding human sexuality.

~dancer~

Thanks Liz! ;-)

This is what the sheer act of prolonged navel gazing will produce, if pursued long and intensively enough.

[_Droopy]

.

POST LINKS NEXT TIME.

The link is posted at the beginning of the essay.

An objective viewer can explain Smith's behavior in a few sentences.

Yes. Little things like facts, evidence, and the serious problems inherent in the intellectually substantive historical reconstruction of events that were never or poorly recorded should not be allowed to get in the way of the re-martyrdom of Joseph Smith each and every day at Mormondiscussions.com

The diatribe that you cut-n-pasted is similar to a defense attorney defending a confessed ciminal. Bottom line is to keep his client out of prison.

Diatribe? Hmmm. Looked more like a balanced scholarly study to me.

Every Mormon member is a defense attorney for Joseph Smith and must keep Smith within the divinity that he claimed to have been given.

The same exact thing can be said about every secular leftist, humanist, atheist, EV, or any other critic who's world view conflicts and is threatened by the things that Joseph taught. This isn't an argument at all, but just a bomb you think you can drop to avoid the serious thinking that would be required to actually explore the issue.

You have an explicit need to believe and are therefore required to be subjective in the analysis of the historical data concerning this matter.

I don't have a need to believe when I know...

But I only know a few things, and have need of faith for many others. That's all a part of the plan, the plan which you and others like you, like the preexistent Lucifer, seek in some manner to circumvent.

[_truth dancer]

No I am not sure it does. So what if people think you are bad. Does that make you bad?

Jason, my point has NOTHING TO DO WITH the idea that because others believed Joseph Smith was bad, he was. I'm not arguing this at all, in any way.

AGAIN.. my point was, the fact that Joseph Smith was kicked out of town is evidence that he was not well liked. That is it. Nothing more. I'm saying nothing about if he is or is not a bad guy... I'm saying he was kicked out because he wasn't well liked.

I seriously do not know how to phrase this in any other way.

My PERSONAL reasons for not thinking of Joseph Smith as an honorable or decent man have nothing to do with how he was viewed by others. I seriously do not care at all. Not a bit. It doesn't matter to me in any way, shape, or form.

I don't think any thirty something married man who uses God as an excuse to sleep with/take/own/marry/use/whatever girls and women is honorable or decent. I DON"T CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK ABOUT THIS.

It makes no difference to my opinion if others applaud his (any leader here) action, or want to kill him... it doesn't influence my personal views on these sorts of men.

IF you still don't understand, well... never mind. (smile)

In terms of including girls as we discuss Joseph Smith's harem/wives/whatever.... I think there is clear evidence Joseph Smith slept with at least some of his wives. The fact that he supposedly (smile) started the practice to raise up seed, alone tells us that he was supposed to have sex with these girls and women, nevertheless... he manipulated and coerced them and used them for his purposes and I find the behavior deplorable. Whether Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, or any other alpha male cult or religious leader, I find using girls even more disgusting than manipulating adult women.

~dancer~

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, my point has NOTHING TO DO WITH the idea that because others believed Joseph Smith was bad, he was. I'm not arguing this at all, in any way.

AGAIN.. my point was, the fact that Joseph Smith was kicked out of town is evidence that he was not well liked. That is it. Nothing more. I'm saying nothing about if he is or is not a bad guy... I'm saying he was kicked out because he wasn't well liked.

I seriously do not know how to phrase this in any other way.

My PERSONAL reasons for not thinking of Joseph Smith as an honorable or decent man have nothing to do with how he was viewed by others. I seriously do not care at all. Not a bit. It doesn't matter to me in any way, shape, or form.

I don't think any thirty something married man who uses God as an excuse to sleep with/take/own/marry/use/whatever girls and women is honorable or decent. I DON"T CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK ABOUT THIS.

I understand. I think I made the connection because the OP was about the character of leaders, you said they were scoundrels then said look their neighbors did not like them. I gottchya. We can move on.

In terms of including girls as we discuss Joseph Smith's harem/wives/whatever.... I think there is clear evidence Joseph Smith slept with at least some of his wives. The fact that he supposedly (smile) started the practice to raise up seed, alone tells us that he was supposed to have sex with these girls and women, nevertheless... he manipulated and coerced them and used them for his purposes and I find the behavior deplorable. Whether Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, or any other alpha male cult or religious leader, I find using girls even more disgusting than manipulating adult women.

Still we lack evidence of sex with the girls. This is the only point I am talking about here.

[Guest]

I don't have a need to believe when I know...

Oh ferchissakes, he is bearing his testiphony now...

*The ward shuffles as many wonder why Brother Droopy is walking toward the stand..*
"that's the inactive guy right???", some whisper...

Look everyone! The inactive jack Mormon has a testiphony!