MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I object to the blanket statement of "MAD myth." Since I am a participant there I would fall under its general name, and I have never held that "members who are taken aback by this stuff are just lazy and ill-informed."


Well, then you reject the MAD myth, but I’ve seen it stated or implied over there enough that I feel justified in using the term.

Other than the explicit assertions of the actual authors that there was absolutely no change of the manuscript, content, etc. on the basis of trying to hide anything or protect the image of the Church, etc.


You don’t get it, do you? This isn’t about whether or not BY actually ordered the attack, or whether the information existed and was suppressed. BY may not have ordered the attack and there is no information out there in the first place. The point is about conflict of interest, and whether or not the church leaders really would have allowed anything to be printed. Their own words say that they would not, regardless of what they may have told the authors. And why should I trust the words of men who have already stated that some truths ought to be suppressed, anyway?

The fact, (yes, the explicit fact) that you have no facts to back up your belief that the Church, leaders, or authors of this book are hiding a smoking gun speaks for itself.


See above. The point isn’t a smoking gun. I have no idea if a smoking gun exists. The point is conflict of interest.

How about the Fancher's and the other emigrants as the "bad guys" then? Exactly.


Like I said, I will be paying particular attention to that portion of the book. I know, based on their interview, that the authors stated the Fanchers did NOT provoke the attack. And yet you have seemingly intelligent people reading the book and walking away thinking that they really DID do something provocative. Why?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Eighteen pages!

20 by 20!
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:
I object to the blanket statement of "MAD myth." Since I am a participant there I would fall under its general name, and I have never held that "members who are taken aback by this stuff are just lazy and ill-informed."


Well, then you reject the MAD myth, but I’ve seen it stated or implied over there enough that I feel justified in using the term.


Alright. Just know that it is inaccurate insofar as it doesn't represent at least 5 regular and very active posters on the site.

You don’t get it, do you? This isn’t about whether or not BY actually ordered the attack, or whether the information existed and was suppressed. BY may not have ordered the attack and there is no information out there in the first place. The point is about conflict of interest, and whether or not the church leaders really would have allowed anything to be printed. Their own words say that they would not, regardless of what they may have told the authors. And why should I trust the words of men who have already stated that some truths ought to be suppressed, anyway?


I acknowledged the possibility of a conflict of interest. I do not foresee the findings of this book being printed in any Church manuals in the near future. I do see an academic book presented with as faithful an account as the authors could muster. After reading it, I feel pretty good about the historical records they have included.


quote]How about the Fancher's and the other emigrants as the "bad guys" then? Exactly.


Like I said, I will be paying particular attention to that portion of the book. I know, based on their interview, that the authors stated the Fanchers did NOT provoke the attack. And yet you have seemingly intelligent people reading the book and walking away thinking that they really DID do something provocative. Why?[/quote]

My guess? Because the reader isn't all that reliable of a reviewer, and given a conflict of interest (former believer?) has focused on what confirmed his prior suspicions. I've said it several times now: The review you read, that brief, perfunctory one, actually confirmed my impressions of the book by accident. In lamenting that the writers seem to switch back and forth, or slip in innuendo, the reviewer demonstrated that the authors didn't pain a simplistic Nancy Drew novel. Instead, the tried to publish historical records in a narrative with a theory on why the massacre occurred.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

LoaP - if both you and DCP concede that the conflict of interest is a legitimate point to be raised, and all the awareness that goes along with that, then we probably aren't disagreeing with that much, in the end, other than whether or not church leaders would have ever allowed information that directly proved BY ordered the massacre to be published. I do not think they would have allowed it, and think my opinion is backed up by their own statements.

I will read the book as soon as I receive it, but I am really far more interested in the second book which will deal with the cover-up.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:LoaP - if both you and DCP concede that the conflict of interest is a legitimate point to be raised, and all the awareness that goes along with that, then we probably aren't disagreeing with that much, in the end, other than whether or not church leaders would have ever allowed information that directly proved BY ordered the massacre to be published. I do not think they would have allowed it, and think my opinion is backed up by their own statements.


I do believe they would have allowed it, given the expressed opinions and statements of the authors, and the fact that Pres. Packer and Elder Oaks are not the final authority on what is published and what isn't. There isn't even a way to know if either of them has read the book themselves. I'll take the words of the authors regarding the "marching orders" from President Hinckley over the old statements of Pres. Packer.

I will read the book as soon as I receive it, but I am really far more interested in the second book which will deal with the cover-up.



Can't imagine why. I'm off. Enjoy Nancy Grace tonight!
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

No No NO!

Don't give up!

This thread about nothing doesn't need to end!

20 by 20!
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

This thread about nothing doesn't need to end!


It hasn't been about nothing. It's been about a serious conflict of interest, and, in the end, you finally conceded my point. Yes, it did take many, many pages to get to that, but it did happen.

Pulling teeth may be hard work, but sometimes teeth just gotta go.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:in the end, you finally conceded my point. Yes, it did take many, many pages to get to that, but it did happen.

Pulling teeth may be hard work, but sometimes teeth just gotta go.

I thought your point so totally obvious as to require no discussion. I simply say that the best way to evaluate a book is to read it -- especially when the alternative is an only slightly shorter thread about the book's authors created by people who haven't read it.

I'm one of those who think that Galileo had a good idea. When the scholastics of his day, following 2000 years of learned discussion dating from Aristotle, declared that objects of different weight fall at different speeds, he climbed a tower and dropped two objects of different weight.

To spare you any more frustration, though, here are some more concessions:

2 + 2 = 4

The earth is round.

Humans are mortal.

The sky is often blue.

Water is wet.

And this thread can reach twenty pages before 20 August.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Well, I can't count how many times believers have denied or argued what I viewed as painfully obvious. There's an excellent example right on this thread, in fact. Both you and LoaP insist that the church leaders would allow information showing that BY ordered the attack to be published, and I think it's painfully obvious that they would not. I've learned through painful experience not to assume that others accept what looks obvious to me.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Whooohooo!

I smell nineteen! It's close!

20 by 20!
Post Reply