Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

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_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

Dart,

I know it must be an oversight on my part because, after all, I am an idiot, but I can't find where you apply your impeccable logic, intellect, and vast information to this dilemma:

But even if they were, we simply do not have the military or economic might anymore to invade Iran. This is reality, as much as you might like to imagine the Superman America being able fly into and beat anyone to a pulp. Look at the difficulties we’ve had with Iraq. We now have concluded that we need at least 100,000 boots on the ground to even partially control the situation in Iraq. Iraq had a population of 24 million. Iran has 70 million. Iraq had manpower fit for military service of 4 million. Iran has 12 million. Iraq had a military budge of 1.3 billion. Iran has a military budget of 9.7 billion. In addition, Iran’s terrain is more problematic. facts obtained here

Now you tell me with a straight face that we have the military and economic might to conduct a successful war in Iran, PLUS still deal with Iraq and Afghanistan. I actually supported the invasion of Afghanistan, because they were hosting and enabling the people who actually did attack us. What would Afghanistan look like today had we focused our attention there, instead of diverting forces and money from Afghanistan to Iraq??? Afghanistan has been neglected and is now screaming for attention. The hard fact is that, aside from the incompetency of the Bush administration, we simply don’t have the means to deal with BOTH arenas simultaneously with a high degree of success. And you think we can add Iran on to that mess????


Or perhaps you just agree with Droopy, whose thoughts seem to align quite well with yours so far, and think we should just destroy the entire country. What's a little nuclear holocaust as long as the good guys started it?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Droopy
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Droopy »

My point is that in order for McCain's supporters to continue to attack Obama due to his lack of experience, they will have to alter their argument as dart has demonstrated. This is a much less persuasive line of attack, because it relies on the willingness to weight Palin's gubernatorial experience as meaning more than Obama's legislative experience.


Again, Palin has much more executive administrative experience than Obama. Obama's main claim to qualifications are his four years in the Senate and his community organizing. But "community organizing" is nothing more than a grass roots rent seeking expidition that attempts to transfer taxpayer dollars and political power to various groups and interests dependent upon government for their existence and influence.

I see no evidence that Obama ever created a single real job in Chicago, or ever brought any new net wealth into the inner city neighborhoods he claims to have been so concerned about. Is bringing government largess into low income neighborhoods really "helping" them? More government programs and paternalism? Is this a qualification for the Presidency?

Oh, and didn't Obama's community organizing carry ideological weight?

According to an article in The Nation:


Obama worked in the organizing tradition of Saul Alinsky, who made Chicago the birthplace of modern community organizing, as translated through the Gamaliel Foundation, one of several networks of faith-based organizing.


In the tradition of Saul Alinkski? Yup, and if you don't know who Alinski was, or what he believed, I'd suggest you educate yourself on the subject before you vote this November (Alinksi was a personal friend and a major intellectual mentor to Hillary Clinton as well).

Who and what is the Gamaliel Foundation? Discover the Networks describes it thus:

* Network of grassroots organizations working to bring about social change
* Models its tactics after those of the radical Sixties activist Saul Alinsky



The stated mission of the Gamaliel Foundation (GF) is "to be a powerful network of grassroots, interfaith, interracial, multi-issue organizations working together to create a more just and more democratic society." Predicated on the notion that America is a land rife with injustice, GF agitates for social change by supporting the efforts of a network of organizations (the Gamaliel Network) whose goal is to allow for individuals to "effectively participate" in the political, environmental, social and economic arenas. GF offers, for its network affiliates, programs to teach techniques and methodologies for bringing about social change; ongoing consultations; and organizer recruitment campaigns.

The Gamaliel Foundation derives its name from the biblical figure who, according to the New Testament, chastised the Jewish Sanhedrin (rabbinical court) for wanting to give the death penalty to Jesus's apostles. Says GF, "We work in the hope and the confidence that this work is of God." GF was established in 1968 to support the Contract Buyers League, an African American organization fighting to protect homeowners on Chicago's West Side who had been discriminated against by banks and lending institutions.

The Gamaliel Network receives much of its funding from the leftist group Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD). Yet according to the Roman Catholic Faithful website, GF's "goals and philosophies are at fundamental odds with Church teaching." GF endorses "scriptural relativism"and "encourage[s] a wide range of scriptural interpretations."

The Gamaliel Foundation models itself after the activism of the 1960s radical Saul Alinsky, who authored the books Reveille for Radicals (1946), The Professional Radical (1970), and Rules for Radicals (1971). Alinsky's prescription for effective organizing consisted of the following elements: (a) Develop a "trade union in the social factory" to serve as a vehicle by which people in the neighborhood can bargain, strike, and struggle to advance their agendas; (b) create a power-oriented community organization willing to use militant, confrontational tactics; and (c) promote a democratic organization where organizers do not themselves lead, but rather develop local leaders so as to create the veneer of self-determination and grassroots democracy.

GF likens its own mission to that of the biblical apostle Paul. "In Corinthians," explains GF, "Paul states, 'I am Paul, a disciple of Gamaliel.' Saul Alinsky made all of his organizers read the letters of Paul because he regarded his namesake to be one of the greatest organizers of all time."

The Gamaliel Foundation takes a strong stand against current homeland security measures and immigration restrictions. In September of 2003, for example, Ana Garcia-Ashley, GF's Director of Civil Rights for Immigrants, described the Patriot Act as an "attack on immigrants." Moreover, GF seeks to persuade the U.S. government to "legalize and provide rights to tax-paying [illegal] immigrants in this country.” "We support any immigration legislation," adds GF, "that secures the civil rights of all immigrants; leads to the legalization of undocumented persons; provides for full labor protection and labor rights of immigrants; ends the inhumane detention and warehousing of asylum seekers; ends deportation for minor offenses; encourages family unity; provides security of our borders; includes humane border enforcement policies; [and] protects the civil liberties of all people."

The Gamaliel Foundation is a sponsoring organization of the Immigrant Workers Freedom Ride Coalition, which seeks to secure ever-expanding rights and civil liberties protections for illegal immigrants, and policy reforms that diminish or eliminate restrictions on immigration.

At its 2003 National Leadership Assembly in Milwaukee, GF assembled a large number of leftist religious leaders to launch a voter drive against the incumbent Bush administration. At the event, featured speaker Rev. Tommie Pierson of Metropolitan Congregations United stated that he looked forward to the sound "of furniture being moved out of the White House." Also attending the event were Democratic Senator Russ Feingold and Democratic Presidential candidate and Progressive Caucus member Dennis Kucinich.

Gregory Galluzzo, a former Jesuit priest, is the Executive Director of the Gamaliel Foundation. In 1980 Galluzzo co-founded, along with his wife Mary Gonzalez, a Chicago Latino activist organization called the United Neighborhood Organization (UNO). Today, Ms. Gonzalez is the Gamaliel Foundation's Director of Western Territory. UNO, also modeled after Alinsky's methods, is known for using aggressive organizing and confrontational tactics to push for change.

The President of the Board of the Gamaliel Foundation is Ann Smith, who in 1985 became the first black female to win a statewide election in Illinois when she was voted onto the Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois.

The Gamaliel Foundation receives grants from the Bauman Family Foundation, the Public Welfare Foundation, the Carnegie Corporation of New York, the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, the Ford Foundation, George Soros's Open Society Institute, and others.


In essence, Barak was involved in the politicization and radicalization of poor, inner city residents for the purpose of advancing both an ideological agenda and the diversion and concentration taxpayer funds and state power into those inner city neighborhoods in the form of government services, economic protectionism (the steel industry),and the theory of personal success and empowerment through political agitation and activity (as opposed to hard work, sacrifice, and sound values).

Alinski, Dorn, Ayers, Pfligar, Davis, Wright...Obama is not only thoroughly unqualified to be President, his roster of mentors and close political associates belies an ideology wholly incongruent with the principles of the Founding as well as present mainstream political leangins across a broad swath of the electorate from both parties.

Let's cut to the chase: Obama is a revolutionary socialist, a black nationalist, and a traditional nanny state leftist, and for all that, its not his clear lack of qualifications for the job so much as his clear lack of knowledge and judgement that are key.


The fact is that McCain has declared Obama "dangerously unprepared to lead", and has attacked his lack of experience to bolster that charge. Yet, he now has declared Palin "ready to be president".


Margarate Thatcher, too, had little foreign policy experience of knowledge upon entering office, but surrounded herself with experts who did. She learned on the job. Palin is not running for President, McCain is.

Palin, who, by her own admission, hasn't even thought much about the war in Iraq, is "ready to be president" because she was the governor of Alaska.


Neither has Obama, given his pronouncements on the subject thus far, thought much about the Iraq war. Obama is, indeed, dangerously naïve, uninformed, and intellectually thin on the Iraq situation, as well as on other important issues, such as energy.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

Oh, one more quickie:

I think that is precisely why she was picked. I said as much the other day. Saying he was picked to get him elected is ridiculous. There might very well be a backfire to picking her, it was a very risky move. Picking her was no guarantee of anything. Romney was a solid choice but McCain didn't go with the sure thing. He wants to tackle the energy crisis, and Palin is better qualified in that dept. She is a fighter who doesn't just propose something and leaves it at that. She follows through with it until she gets what she wants.


No doubt, someone who doesn't believe global warming is man-made is just who we need to solve our energy crisis.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

This thread has become an excellent demonstration of why I normally try to avoid political topics. It doesn't bother me to discuss bizarre religious beliefs, because most of the time these strange beliefs have no impact on my life (other than through my family). Someone who believes in translating gold plates with a peepstone isn't, for example, going to vote to elect someone who wants to teach peepstone translating as a sound practice with any credible evidence. They'll kindly restrict that nutty teaching to religious venues.

But when people believe things like global warming is not caused by mankind, and that Iraq is all good, settled and taken care of so a VP candidate shouldn't bother thinking much about it, or that it's fine to teach creationism in terms of a "healthy debate", or that people who oppose the war in Iraq really hate the US and wants the US to fail.... these same people and their nutty beliefs have the power to collectively elect another nut who embraces these same ideas. Yes, I refuse to be PC and pretend that I think these beliefs are anything but as every bit as nutty as translating gold plates with a peepstone. And that does have an impact on my life, and yes, it is upsetting to me. Discussing it obviously changes no one's mind. So I will do my best to remember my own advice to myself, and "let go" discussions that are pointless and simply aggravate. I may keep reading just for the pleasure of seeing Droopy and Dart cuddle with each other, however. I can't think of two posters who deserve each other as bedmates more.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Droopy
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Droopy »

beastie wrote:Dart,

I know it must be an oversight on my part because, after all, I am an idiot, but I can't find where you apply your impeccable logic, intellect, and vast information to this dilemma:

But even if they were, we simply do not have the military or economic might anymore to invade Iran. This is reality, as much as you might like to imagine the Superman America being able fly into and beat anyone to a pulp. Look at the difficulties we’ve had with Iraq. We now have concluded that we need at least 100,000 boots on the ground to even partially control the situation in Iraq. Iraq had a population of 24 million. Iran has 70 million. Iraq had manpower fit for military service of 4 million. Iran has 12 million. Iraq had a military budge of 1.3 billion. Iran has a military budget of 9.7 billion. In addition, Iran’s terrain is more problematic. facts obtained here

Now you tell me with a straight face that we have the military and economic might to conduct a successful war in Iran, PLUS still deal with Iraq and Afghanistan. I actually supported the invasion of Afghanistan, because they were hosting and enabling the people who actually did attack us. What would Afghanistan look like today had we focused our attention there, instead of diverting forces and money from Afghanistan to Iraq??? Afghanistan has been neglected and is now screaming for attention. The hard fact is that, aside from the incompetency of the Bush administration, we simply don’t have the means to deal with BOTH arenas simultaneously with a high degree of success. And you think we can add Iran on to that mess????


Or perhaps you just agree with Droopy, whose thoughts seem to align quite well with yours so far, and think we should just destroy the entire country. What's a little nuclear holocaust as long as the good guys started it?


One of Bush's major failings here is the naked, empirical and strategic fact that our post Cold War military is simply too small relative to the actual threats facing American and the west in the post Cold War and post 9/11 world.

Our military is too tiny, and was downgraded from an ability to handle two major wars in two theaters in the early years of the Iraq campaign. This is a major failing of both parties, and the Bush administration (trying to fight the war on the cheap).

The military was gutted during the Clinton years, by about 40% across the services, and this has never been rectified. Bush and the Republicans have been far more concerned with handing out government benefits and buying votes then with making sure our military is capable of handling its actual missions, and this is unfortunate. We do not have Star Trek technology. Winning wars still depends, despite our awesome air power and smart weapons, on taking and holding territory.

Vietnam is still alive and well in both parties, in the Democrat party as an ideological icon, and in the Republican party as a generational mental and political handicap that blurs vision and cripples needed decision making.

The primary focus and responsibility of good government is security, both civil and national, not a prescription drug benefit, not federal education standards, not taxpayer backed housing loans to poor credit risks, not the provision of health care, and not free this and free that to whomever will support the incumbent political class next election cycle.

We are in war time, and a substantial component of the American electorate is just going to have to get over that fact if we are to pass through this well.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Droopy »

But when people believe things like global warming is not caused by mankind,


When I see one, solid, substantive shred of direct, empirical evidence that this is the case, or that this claim is even remotely plausible, I'll be more than willing to consider it.

and that Iraq is all good, settled and taken care of so a VP candidate shouldn't bother thinking much about it,


Try again Beastie...try.


or that it's fine to teach creationism in terms of a "healthy debate",


And please no further mendacity. Palin already cleared this up for those who care to be intellectually honest about the situation (and that's a large assumption to make for most on the Left, I'll admit).

or that people who oppose the war in Iraq really hate the US and wants the US to fail....


This is precisely and succinctly accurate about the historic and present anti-war movement, but no one is saying any such thing about all those who oppose the war, some of which are conservatives.

I may keep reading just for the pleasure of seeing Droopy and Dart cuddle with each other, however. I can't think of two posters who deserve each other as bedmates more.


KG and I disagree wildly on church related issues, but he's been right on in most of his assertions regarding the main points of this thread. Frankly Beastie, you are simply too uninformed on too many issues, (see the AGW claim above or anything on Iraq) to really even engage in this debate in any productive manner. While you have a perfect right to do so, self education, at some greater depth than what you see on the CNN crawl or hear on The View is required for any real substantive discourse to take place.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _EAllusion »

Richard -

I went over transcripts of the debates and I could not find what you are referring to. This is the closest comment I could find from Obama:

OBAMA: Well, Mr. Keyes, you've talked a lot about, in this campaign, about empowering people in the areas of health care, education, and so forth, yet you've publicly endorsed the repeal of the Seventeenth Amendment to the Constitution, which gives individual voters rather than state legislatures the power to choose their United States Senator.

You know, if your proposal was adopted, presumably all the viewers who are watching here tonight wouldn't be watching, because they wouldn't have any say-so in this election. And, I guess I'm interested in how you reconcile your supposed concern about empowering people with your willingness to disenfranchise them in this race.

KEYES: Well, you know, I think that the question actually illustrates the ignorance that I've noticed of your understanding of the American Constitution, and its background.

Senators were originally chosen, under our Constitution, by the state legislature--for the simple reason that the Senate was supposed to represent the state governments, not geographic entities, but the governments that are empowered to take care of the affairs of the states, as sovereign entities that, under our Constitution, retained the residual powers of government not delegated to the federal government.

In point of fact, the notion that this somehow disenfranchises people--our laws, in the state of Illinois, are passed by the state legislature. In the passage of those laws, are the people of this state "disenfranchised"?

Of course they're not. When the legislature makes a decision, puts a criminal law on the books, it is "The People v. So-and-So" when that law is violated, because the legislature is presumed to represent the people. That is the meaning of our Constitutional system.

But what has happened under the federal aegis, since we adopted the Seventeenth Amendment, isn't that people are enfranchised.

It's that more and more important issues--including, under certain education laws now, things vital to the community like education--are being more and more decided by distant bureaucrats, by people at a level of government not as responsive as the state and local level. That's why we should protect the prerogatives of the state governments that are closer to our people.

MAGERS: Thank you. Mr. Obama, forty-five seconds.

OBAMA: Listen, I love my colleagues in the state legislature, but I think you should be voting for your United States Senator, not my colleagues. You know, I have a little understanding of the Constitution, since I teach constitutional law at the University of Chicago, and I understand that, in fact, that was the original way that the Constitution was framed.

It also prohibited anybody other than white, male property owners from voting. That's why we had amendments, so that black people and Asians and women could vote. It strikes me a funny way to empower people, to take their vote away.


The Constitution didn't prohibit non-white, male property owners from voting, but the governments of the time did and it wasn't proscribed by the understood meaning of the constitution until amendments were passed. But Obama clearly understands that. He was speaking off the cuff.

And, of course, the point he was making in response to Alan Keyes argument is right on the money. It's like he somehow found himself in a debate with Droopy for a senate position.
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Droopy »

The Constitution didn't prohibit non-white, male property owners from voting, but the governments of the time did and it wasn't proscribed by the understood meaning of the constitution until amendments were passed. But Obama clearly understands that. He was speaking off the cuff.



Or, Obama is just as ignorant of the Constitution as he appears to be and as the brilliant Dr. Keys made him appear. There are plenty of recent examples (check Youtube frequently) of what happens to Obama when the Teleprompter quits.

Obama is a classic product of the now traditional PC university; he does very well regurgitating various standardized platitudes and shibboleths but doesn't think very well on his feet and doesn't really have a sound educational grounding in first principles, historical facts, or critical thinking.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Droopy »

And, of course, the point he was making in response to Alan Keyes argument is right on the money. It's like he somehow found himself in a debate with Droopy for a senate position.


This is quite humorous as Alan Keys, a truly brilliant intellect with a deep knowledge of the constitution and American political and cultural history, makes Obama, when a direct comparison is possible, look like the empty suit he actually is.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:This is quite humorous as Alan Keys, a truly brilliant intellect with a deep knowledge of the constitution and American political and cultural history, makes Obama, when a direct comparison is possible, look like the empty suit he actually is.


I'm comparing Alan Keyes to you. Let's both just agree to be happy about this.
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