The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

[_mentalgymnast]

mentalgymnast

When you have folks that claim to rely on the witness of the HG and their position parallels Joseph Fielding Smith's (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, pages 232-243)...and then you have the folks at FAIR/FARMS doing their stuff and doing it without claiming the witness of the HG is involved in their presentation as it relates to the way things are/were in regards to LGT, etc., it makes things a bit dicey and confusing for many people who take the time to investigate.

I simply don't think this is so at all. I have never felt anything getting dicey from either FAIR or FARMS presentations. At all.

I was referring to the average non-scholarly trained Mormon that is studying up on Book of Mormon issues trying to deliberate/analyze evidences between the FAIR/FARMS folks and the Meldrum folks. That can become a bit dicey.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

mentalgymnast

Seems to me, Meldrum is in line with Joseph Smith and the teachings of the early church, while the apologists believe Joseph Smith just had a "superficial understanding" of the Book of Mormon.

I haven't noticed it in this manner at all... Joseph Smith was quite clear in the Times & Seasons after seeing the book of travels in Yucatan by Stevens and Catherwood, that the Nephite civilizations and cities were in Quirigua, and Izapa, and Palenque, among others. His knowledge, exactly as ours incidentally, was a line upon line and precept by precept. There is nothing saying that God has to do a complete data dump into anyone's mind.
And, the internal evidence of the Book of Mormon itself shows that the extent of the civilization was a few hundred miles, not covering over two entire continents. A new book out by a Dr. Lund Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon; Is This the Place? is quite a good start for this. He shows many problems with the Great Lakes North American ideas for the Nephites, and several ways that Mesoamerica fits the Book of Mormon.

Truth Dancer said this. I was quoting her.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

mentalgymnast

Seems to me, Meldrum is in line with Joseph Smith and the teachings of the early church, while the apologists believe Joseph Smith just had a "superficial understanding" of the Book of Mormon.

I haven't noticed it in this manner at all... Joseph Smith was quite clear in the Times & Seasons after seeing the book of travels in Yucatan by Stevens and Catherwood, that the Nephite civilizations and cities were in Quirigua, and Izapa, and Palenque, among others. His knowledge, exactly as ours incidentally, was a line upon line and precept by precept. There is nothing saying that God has to do a complete data dump into anyone's mind.
And, the internal evidence of the Book of Mormon itself shows that the extent of the civilization was a few hundred miles, not covering over two entire continents. A new book out by a Dr. Lund Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon; Is This the Place? is quite a good start for this. He shows many problems with the Great Lakes North American ideas for the Nephites, and several ways that Mesoamerica fits the Book of Mormon.

Hi Just me... welcome to the board! :-)

I've heard the debate over the LGT vs HGT and I believe in neither... (smile).

I have heard apologists say and write that Joseph Smith just had a "superficial understanding" of the Book of Mormon. For example, If I recall correctly my friend Mike Ash writes this in one of his articles... I believe I saw it in Sunstone? I have heard others suggest this as well.

This isn't my believe, I am just relating what I have heard.

While I understand some apologists go with the "line upon line" idea, I think many believers hold to the teachings of the prophets as truth. Many believers I know actually believe prophets speak the truth rather than just share their opinion. ;-)

Again, I'm not one to debate the issue because I believe the Book of Mormon was made up.

I do however think it is clear many prophets and leaders of the LDS church believe as does Meldrum regarding the Book of Mormon.

~td~

[_Daniel Peterson]

While I understand some apologists go with the "line upon line" idea, I think many believers hold to the teachings of the prophets as truth. Many believers I know actually believe prophets speak the truth rather than just share their opinion. ;-)

There's good reason for the fact that the Straw Man is one of the oldest and most venerable logical fallacies.

I do however think it is clear many prophets and leaders of the LDS church believe as does Meldrum regarding the Book of Mormon.

How much do you really know about Meldrum's positions?

From what I've seen of his views, they seem somewhat innovative and clearly distinct from traditional popular opinion.

[_Calculus Crusader]

It was a solemn moment when the double-bladed executioner's axe was passed from FARMS to FAIR.

I remember it as if it were yesterday.

We met for the ceremony on the upper slopes of Mount Doom, in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie. The director of FARMS, Sauron the Necromancer, bestowed the axe upon the president of FAIR, also known as the Witch-King of Angmar, lord of the Nazgul, while lava flowed all around and lightning flashed in the black skies above and Krispy Kreme doughnuts were distributed freely among the assembled orcs. It was one of the most impressive ritual occasions in which I've ever participated. I think I found the human sacrifices the most moving aspect of the transfer, although I never tire of the wondrous music of Yanni.

I'm glad to see that you've switched to defending the historicity of a more deserving fictional book.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm glad to see that you've switched to defending the historicity of a more deserving fictional book.

Long time no hear!

I hadn't realized until now how pleasant it's been.

[_truth dancer]

While I understand some apologists go with the "line upon line" idea, I think many believers hold to the teachings of the prophets as truth. Many believers I know actually believe prophets speak the truth rather than just share their opinion. ;-)

There's good reason for the fact that the Straw Man is one of the oldest and most venerable logical fallacies.

I do however think it is clear many prophets and leaders of the LDS church believe as does Meldrum regarding the Book of Mormon.

How much do you really know about Meldrum's positions?

From what I've seen of his views, they seem somewhat innovative and clearly distinct from traditional popular opinion.

I don't think my point is a strawman at all... it is the main point and the real problem! ;-)

My familiarity with Meldrum is based on what I have read online... from what I have read it seems his ideas blend well with the early teachings of the church and are in line with what most believers I know embrace.

I think the LTG is a completely different story than the one many members were taught, and most still believe.

In my ward I doubt more than five people (me, my husband and possibly three others... smile), have ever even heard of the LGT.

I think the draw to Meldrum is that he is supporting by "science" what most members have believed by the spirit.

~td~

[_Daniel Peterson]

My familiarity with Meldrum is based on what I have read online... from what I have read it seems his ideas blend well with the early teachings of the church and are in line with what most believers I know embrace.

If you knew his ideas better, I think you might back off from that sentiment a bit.

I think the LTG is a completely different story than the one many members were taught, and most still believe.

I would agree that LGT models are quite different -- not completely different -- from the vague picture that many members have had in their minds, and that a (perhaps) decreasing number still assume.

In my ward I doubt more than five people (me, my husband and possibly three others... smile), have ever even heard of the LGT.

That doesn't, however, necessarily mean that nobody else in the ward holds, even if inarticulately, to the essence of a limited Mesoamerican geography.

When I was a kid, many moons ago, the California Intermountain News, a local LDS weekly, regularly ran ads for tours to Book of Mormon lands. These tours never went to Missouri or to upstate New York; groups that went to New York and the upper Midwest were Church history tours. Instead, the Book of Mormon tours went to Mexico and Guatemala and that area. This was years before the publication of anything by John Sorenson or any his students had appeared.

I think the draw to Meldrum is that he is supporting by "science" what most members have believed by the spirit.

I would agree that Meldrum draws his audiences by his appealing use of seeming science to support something that resembles in some important points (but not all) what many members have assumed on the basis of tradition but, most often, haven't really given much thought to.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

My familiarity with Meldrum is based on what I have read online... from what I have read it seems his ideas blend well with the early teachings of the church and are in line with what most believers I know embrace.

Read closer...

I think the LTG is a completely different story than the one many members were taught, and most still believe.

In my ward I doubt more than five people (me, my husband and possibly three others... smile), have ever even heard of the LGT.

I think the draw to Meldrum is that he is supporting by "science" what most members have believed by the spirit.

~td~

Meldrum is proposing a LGT...