Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

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_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

The new DVD A Journey of Faith: The New World. Fresh out and stunning information, not to say the least the beauty of the place!


It's also full of misleading information. I watched it,too - only I've read enough books about ancient Mesoamerica to recognize the BS. I'm guessing you haven't.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _harmony »

beastie wrote:
The new DVD A Journey of Faith: The New World. Fresh out and stunning information, not to say the least the beauty of the place!


It's also full of misleading information. I watched it,too - only I've read enough books about ancient Mesoamerica to recognize the BS. I'm guessing you haven't.


Let's see... a DVD, full of information the participants know is at best ambiguous and at worst, completely false.

Someone explain to me... how is this not lies? I mean, if a participant doesn't know he's giving out false information, he's just wrong. But if he knows... and from who Trixie says is on the DVD, many of them know... how is this not just misleading, but downright lies?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

Someone explain to me... how is this not lies? I mean, if a participant doesn't know he's giving out false information, he's just wrong. But if he knows... and from who Trixie says is on the DVD, many of them know... how is this not just misleading, but downright lies?


I do believe the horse statement I mentioned on the other thread is an outright lie.

Most of the rest is just egregiously misleading, but I suppose it's possible for a True Believer to turn off the critical part of his/her brain enough to believe it's the truth. So, technically, not a lie, but having the same effect on trusting believers.

Buyer definitely needs to beware of this DVD.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:It's also full of misleading information. I watched it,too - only I've read enough books about ancient Mesoamerica to recognize the BS. I'm guessing you haven't.

And you can trust beastie. Actual Mesoamericanists may have been involved in the film, but they can't hold a candle to beastie.
_Chap
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
beastie wrote:It's also full of misleading information. I watched it,too - only I've read enough books about ancient Mesoamerica to recognize the BS. I'm guessing you haven't.

And you can trust beastie. Actual Mesoamericanists may have been involved in the film, but they can't hold a candle to beastie.


Were any of the MesoAmericanists who referred to Book of Mormon persons or places on the DVDs not committed believing testimony-bearing LDS?

Just asking.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Chap wrote:Were any of the MesoAmericanists who referred to Book of Mormon persons or places on the DVDs not committed believing testimony-bearing LDS?

Just asking.

No.

But that proves beastie an expert and them incompetent . . . how, exactly?
_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

As I said, DCP, go ahead and demonstrate where my analysis was incorrect. It should be easy to do.

You can find people with degrees defending all sorts of ridiculous propositions. For example, here:

Scientology's long list of PhDs defending the faith

Having a degree does not inoculate people from believing erroneous ideas, and even defending those same ideas. Simply asserting their degreed authority is pretty meaningless, unless they are defending something that the rest of their peers would also defend.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Chap
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Chap wrote:Were any of the MesoAmericanists who referred to Book of Mormon persons or places on the DVDs not committed believing testimony-bearing LDS?

Just asking.

No.

But that proves beastie an expert and them incompetent . . . how, exactly?


Did I say that beastie was an expert in Mesoamerican studies and they were incompetent? How could I be so crude!

But now I will say this:

when a proposition, (such as that it is plausible to hold that Mesoamerican archeology can be interpreted in terms of the stories told in the Book of Mormon, or that monkeys once built a bridge between India and Sri Lanka) turns out to be asserted only by people who were born and brought up in a certain religious group or who have been deeply committed to that group for many years if not born into it, then the weight one gives to their paper qualifications in deciding on the plausibility of the proposition (speaking as a lay person in terms of the relevant area of study) is markedly diminished.

When under such circumstances a person without paper qualifications in the relevant field (such as beastie) advances what do appear to be a large number of reasonable and well-evidenced points against the proposition, one may reasonably diminish one's estimate of its plausibility even further, and it begins to look as though the 'experts' may have allowed their religious commitments to overwhelm their professional judgement.

Of course the thing that would cause a fair-minded lay person to do a volte-face and start treating the assertions of LDS Mesoamericanists about the reality of Book of Mormon events with new respect would be if some Mesoamericanists devoid of LDS commitments were to begin supporting them - by beginning, for instance, to publish articles in reputable journals pointing explicitly to evidence of Judeo-Christian cult practices in Mesoamerican sites, or finding pre-Columbian inscriptions in an undeniably semitic script.

But so far this has not happened, has it?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Daniel Peterson
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Chap wrote:when a proposition, (such as that it is plausible to hold that Mesoamerican archeology can be interpreted in terms of the stories told in the Book of Mormon, or that monkeys once built a bridge between India and Sri Lanka) turns out to be asserted only by people who were born and brought up in a certain religious group or who have been deeply committed to that group for many years if not born into it, then the weight one gives to their paper qualifications in deciding on the plausibility of the proposition (speaking as a lay person in terms of the relevant area of study) is markedly diminished.

The weight was never on their "paper qualifications." It should be on their evidence and arguments.

Chap wrote:When under such circumstances a person without paper qualifications in the relevant field (such as beastie) advances what do appear to be a large number of reasonable and well-evidenced points against the proposition, one may reasonably diminish one's estimate of its plausibility even further, and it begins to look as though the 'experts' may have allowed their religious commitments to overwhelm their professional judgement.

But one's confidence in the assertions of the one lacking professional qualifications should be tempered by the fact that the one lacking professional qualifications is not addressing those with "paper qualifications" directly, but is posting things of which they're almost certainly unaware, but to which they might well be able to respond quite adequately.

Chap wrote:Of course the thing that would cause a fair-minded lay person to do a volte-face and start treating the assertions of LDS Mesoamericanists about the reality of Book of Mormon events with new respect would be if some Mesoamericanists devoid of LDS commitments were to begin supporting them - by beginning, for instance, to publish articles in reputable journals pointing explicitly to evidence of Judeo-Christian cult practices in Mesoamerican sites, or finding pre-Columbian inscriptions in an undeniably semitic script.

But so far this has not happened, has it?

That's one of the ways in which one's confidence could be strengthened, but it doesn't seem to be the only way.

And, in fact, some non-LDS scholars have argued for the existence of pre-Columbian inscriptions in arguably Semitic script.

Said with a sneer.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:As I said, DCP, go ahead and demonstrate where my analysis was incorrect. It should be easy to do.

Beastie, I grew up with the story of the tar baby.

I've learned my lesson.
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