Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

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_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

And, in fact, some non-LDS scholars have argued for the existence of pre-Columbian inscriptions in arguably Semitic script.



And how have their peers reacted?

Beastie, I grew up with the story of the tar baby.

I've learned my lesson.


You're full of it. There is no way you could possibly defend, for example, the statement "they would have found horses there". It's a blanket statement of fact. No nuance, no suggestion that perhaps the vast majority of scholars would vehemently disagree with the assertion.

Come on. There may be wavering believers who need to know that these DVDs do not contain blatantly misleading information. You can, right here, right now, assure them of that by defending it against my accusations.

It really should not be difficult to do.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Beastie, I grew up with the story of the tar baby.

I've learned my lesson.
_Chap
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:

in fact, some non-LDS scholars have argued for the existence of pre-Columbian inscriptions in arguably Semitic script.

Said with a sneer.


Will DCP give a reference to a publication in a scholarly journal where it is argued by a non-LDS scholar that a pre-Columbian inscription is in a semitic script?

[PS: I note that DCP's formulation above is ambiguous enough to leave room for a non-LDS scholar to have discovered an inscription to have existed, and for it to have been an LDS scholar who then opines that it is 'arguably' semitic. If so, it would save time for DCP to make that clear now rather than involving readers of this board in semantic games at a later stage ...]
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Chap wrote:Will DCP give a reference to a publication in a scholarly journal where it is argued by a non-LDS scholar that a pre-Columbian inscription is in a semitic script?

The late great Cyrus Gordon, of Brandeis University, wrote extensively on this subject.

You can find what he wrote as easily as I can.
_Chap
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Beastie, I grew up with the story of the tar baby.

I've learned my lesson.


I grew up with Uncle Remus too. I can't see how the tar baby story is a justification for DCP's refusal to attempt to answer any of beastie's points. In fact as I recall, Brer Rabbit only gets stuck to the tar baby after he attempts to engage it in conversation, and becomes enraged enough to kick it when it fails to answer him.

If anyone is the tar baby here, it is not beastie.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Chap
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Chap wrote:Will DCP give a reference to a publication in a scholarly journal where it is argued by a non-LDS scholar that a pre-Columbian inscription is in a semitic script?

The late great Cyrus Gordon, of Brandeis University, wrote extensively on this subject.

You can find what he wrote as easily as I can.


Put up or shut up?

It's shut up time, evidently.

Wikipedia gives us this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Gordon

Untraditional viewpoints

Not afraid of scholarly controversy, Gordon challenged traditional theories about Greek and Hebrew cultures. In the 1960s, he declared his examination of Minoan (Cretan) texts corroborated his long-held theory that Greek and Hebrew cultures stemmed from a common Semitic heritage. He asserted that this culture spanned the eastern Mediterranean from Greece to Palestine during the Minoan era. Gordon also held that Jews, Phoenicians, and others crossed the Atlantic in antiquity, ultimately arriving in both North and South America. This opinion was based on work on the Bat Creek inscription[1][2][3][4] found in Tennessee and on the Paraiba inscription[5] from Brazil, as well as his assessment of the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone[6].

The authenticity of the Bat Creek Stone has been called into question by American archaeologists Robert C. Mainfort, Jr., and Mary L. Kwas. After examining the archaeological context, the inscription, and the other artefacts associated with it in the articles referenced above, they later argued in American Antiquity (2004) that the inscription was copied from an 1870 Masonic reference book, and is therefore a forgery introduced by the Smithsonian field assistant who found the stone in the nineteenth century. Regarding the Paraiba inscription, F. Cross argued in 1968 (several years prior to publication of Gordon's book on diffusionism) that it was a nineteeth century forgery[7].[8](Gordon acknowledged the possibility that the Paraiba Inscription could be a forgery[9]).


The Bat Creek stone (etc.)? Somehow I don't think I shall be missing a great deal if DCP stays schtum.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Daniel Peterson
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

It's a real stunner to learn that there are controversies in the scholarly world.

You asked for a non-LDS scholar who had argued for a Semitic inscription from Pre-Columbian America. I gave you one.

Whether the question of the Bat Creek inscription or the Paraiba inscription is now closed or not, I couldn't say. I haven't been following it for years. The last thing I heard, there were still advocates.

These things go up and down. Some things pan out. Some don't. Some that seem confirmed later fail. Some that seem disproven are later vindicated.

No Latter-day Saint has claimed that Semitic inscriptions abound in the Americas. If none are ever found, that won't be decisive evidence that none ever existed. And if none ever existed, that isn't decisive proof that there were no Lehites. Nothing in the Book of Mormon text suggests that we ought to be finding lots and lots of ancient Semitic texts across the Americas.

Does this seem to you an attempt to make the Book of Mormon unfalsifiable? Very likely. Some critics claim that. And some critics like the thought because it seems to confirm their devout belief that defenders of the Book of Mormon are dishonest, or, at least, that they're acting in bad intellectual faith. To me, by contrast, this simply seems to be the direction in which careful consideration of the logical possibilities takes one.

Said with a sneer.
_Chap
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Whether the question of the Bat Creek inscription or the Paraiba inscription is now closed or not, I couldn't say. I haven't been following it for years. The last thing I heard, there were still advocates.


Where?

It is, in my view, possible for a scholar's judgement to be so heavily affected by his or her religious commitments that it becomes unreliable, without him or her having the conscious wish to deceive that would be required to make an accusation of bad faith.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Chap wrote:Where?

You can find this as easily as I can.

Chap wrote:It is, in my view, possible for a scholar's judgement to be so heavily affected by his or her religious commitments that it becomes unreliable, without him or her having the conscious wish to deceive that would be required to make an accusation of bad faith.

I completely agree.

In fact, I would broaden the statement: It is, in my view, possible for a scholar's judgment, or a non-scholar's judgment, to be so heavily affected by his or her ideological commitments that it becomes unreliable, without him or her having the conscious wish to deceive that would be required to make an accusation of bad faith.
_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

The Bat Creek stone is viewed as a fraud by all but the fringe elements, of which, in the topic of semitic influence in the New World, Cyrus Gordon was one. Cyrus Gordon made all sorts of suspect claims, such as presenting his argument for Old World influence based on the fact that some ancient art contains images that "look" negroid or Greek. His work was rampantly racist, as well. He was following in the long line of earlier racists who refused to believe that the ignorant New World natives could possibly be responsible for the massive civilization being uncovered.

Here's just one example from his book, which I own and have read:

The testimony of ancient American sculpture is complex but clear to this extent: Long before the Vikings reached America around AD 1000, Mesoamerica had long been the scene of the intermingling of different populations from across the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Some of the most creative people in America came from the Near East; but no one group monopolized the scene. Caucasians from one end of Europe and Japanese types, from the Far East; from the Mediterranean at different times came various Semites including Phoenicians and Carthaginians, as well as Egyptians, Greeks, Etruscans, Romans and still others. In general, the main consequence was the mingling of highly civilized people from all over the world, creating on American soil, through the pooling of their cultural resources, a galaxy of brilliant old American civilizations, whose final phases are known to us as Inca, Maya, and Aztec. In culture, as in the physical universe, out of nothing comes nothing. The breathtaking achievements of the Mesoamericans could not be, and were not, the works of savages who lifted themselves up by their bootstraps. Instead they are the culminations of mingled strands of civilization brought to these shores by a variety of talented people from Europe, Africa, and Asia. (p 30)


Here's another sample of his scholarship:

From the Maya area of Iximche, in the province of Chimaltenango (Guatemala), comes a superb incense burner, probably of preclassical date. It is 33.5 cm high and belongs to the Musee de l’Homme in Paris. Everything about the sculptured head – nose, beard, expression – would fit a Northwest Semite. Whether he was a Phoenician, Syrian, Israelite, Greek, or even an Etruscan is not important, for delving into such problems often degenerates into unprofitable hyperfiness. If we be impelled to define him specifically, we may tentatively call him “an ancient Mediterranean merchant prince.” From the Early Iron Age into Roman times, people of his type maintained creative contacts with middle America. He typifies an important group of the merchant mariners who linked the Mediterranean with the New World. His motives may have been trade, but trade for him meant the development as well as exchange of natural resources – all of which required the spread of science and technology. No physical anthropologist will try to change his classification from Mediterranean to American Indian. And the incense burner is related to similar ones from Veracruz. Accordingly in our “merchant prince” we have a specific link between preclassical Mesoamerica and the ancient Mediterranean.

In the private collection of Alexander von Wuthenau is a Mayan head, larger than life-size, of a pensive, bearded Smite. The dolichocephalic (“long-headed”) type fits the Near East well. He resembles certain European Jews, but he is more like many Yemenite Jews. In Maya fashion his nose appears to extend up to the middle of his forehead. This Maya custom is best explained as an exaggerated imitation of the prominent nose that characterizes so many Near Eastern types. It was precisely because men like the Mediterranean merchant princes were aristocrats in the Mesoamerican Order that their features were emulated by their Maya Indian successors. (p26)



Aside from his racism, Gordon relied heavily on three artifacts that are viewed as frauds by the scientific community to build his argument: the Bat Creek Stone, the Paraiba Inscription, and the Newark Holy Stones.

Authors such as Barry Fell have followed in Gordon's footsteps. I am only aware of one respected scholar, David Kelley, who does not reject all of Fell's claims, and even he states that Fell's work is full of distortions and errors.

It is telling that the only nonLDS sources apologists can cite to support their assertions are generally those whose work is derided by scholars in the field.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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